20 Second Timeout

19 Comments:

At Monday, April 26, 2010 5:46:00 PM,  Anonymous said...

MARCEL

the cavs look dominant as usual you see the lebron 43 footer he shot it like a regualr shot he might be greatest of all time jordan in trouble to me he has 17,000 points at 25 he has 30 plus triple doubles 2 mvp 2 all star mvp scoreing title he lloks like he will win a ring this year. and kenny smith thinks kevin durant will be better in 3 years lol maybe 6 or 7 not 3 because of age.


charlotte is gone howard is dominating the defensive end nelson has 2 30 point games and playing his best basketball this year bye charlotte sweep.

atlanta milwaukee no contest atlanta was bored in game 3 this should be five games too many athletes for atlanta milwaukee miss bogut, jennings played well but will have to go off for milwaukee to extend series

boston will close heat out in 5 games,bostonlooks good right now but will not beat cavs in the next series lebron jamison and cavs have more talented deeper team.

spurs beating dallas a upset to some dallas looked like a west finalist team at least now there going to struggle to make it to second round or more than likely get beat by this team. spurs to me donbt match up well with lakers should get by suns to get to the conference finals.

suns blazers looks like a 7 gamer roy comeing back helps but suns ultmately win the seires i believe.

denver needs george karl back he motivates those guys he has a similar personality like them. if iverson was on the team they wouldnt make playoffs this year the way he declined and when he was there they never played like a team to me carmelo took off when billups got there because he is more of a pure point what that team needs.iverson is a scorer and a great one but a scorer he doesnt make anybody better or put you in great spots to score like billups billups has better shot selection and more of a pass first player iverson was clearly better career player not close but for what denver needed they got in chauncey billups. if iverson was on team last year they wouldnt make it out of first round again.

the lakers are only going to go as far as kobe bryant takes them people think its a stacked team they are not a stacked team kobe makes them go gasol a beast but that is it the lakers in 6 or 7 i believe in this series.

 

At Monday, April 26, 2010 7:53:00 PM,  Stephen said...

This post comes as no surprise to those that have been following you for the past few years.

It's quite impressive how right you've been juxtaposed with the (often self proclaimed) "experts."

In response to the LeBron half court shot: VERY impressive. More impressive than him making it was how easily he got it there.

However, did anyone else notice how at the end of an earlier quarter (I believe the first), LeBron had the ball find it's way to him around midcourt with a second left and he just stood there with it?

I've seen him do this multiple times now. And the only reason I can think he refuses to shoot it is because he's not prepared for it, thus decreasing his likeliness of making it. Which would mean it's a stat thing.

 

At Monday, April 26, 2010 8:09:00 PM,  David Friedman said...

Marcel:

Most of your comment simply echoes what I wrote in this post but I disagree with you regarding Billups and Iverson. While it is true that Iverson's skills have now declined, at the time that the trade happened Iverson was coming off of a very productive season and he did not show serious signs of decline. My point is that if the Nuggets had kept Iverson last year they very likely could have had a similar season--50+ wins, a better seeding than previous years due to other West teams not being as good and an opportunity to advance to the Western Conference Finals. The "stat guru" with whom I am disagreeing asserted that Denver became much better and Detroit became much worse solely because of the Iverson-Billups swap, an idiotic view that ignores all of the other changes that took place with both of those franchises plus the power shift that happened in the West.

Perhaps you are right that the Nuggets would not have made it out of the first round this year with Iverson but they also aren't going to make it out of the first round this year with Billups. The bottom line is that trading Iverson did not make the Nuggets a legit contender--the Lakers beat them easily in the 2009 playoffs and the Nuggets are going down in flames this year versus Utah--but it did saddle them with Billups' large contract. The Nuggets would have been better off riding things out with Iverson for one more year and then if they felt that he had declined too much they could have used the money freed up by his expired contract to sign some younger talent. That is what Dumars tried to do--essentially rent Iverson for one year and then if it did not work let him go and use the salary cap space to acquire talent--but so far the results have been less than stellar because Dumars did not acquire a franchise player or even an All-Star but rather two solid players (Ben Gordon, Charlie Villanueva).

 

At Tuesday, April 27, 2010 1:26:00 AM,  Anonymous said...

marcel

they wouldnt of made it out last year with ai melo played the best ball of his career with billups and that is by no accident. they were never a team with ai they won 50 games off talent not because they played team ball. maybe it is not all ai fault but it was at least part of the problem karl said it last year.

he would take 10 15 bad shots a game him and melo were similar players both scorers who need the ball they couldnt play off each other like billups and him could it is just fit sometimes, plus ai declined last year in detroit he went from 26 ppg 2007-2008 to 17 ppg 2008-2009 so he wouldnt as been as productive they more than likely wouldnt of won 50 games and not made playoffs realistically so no way they get to west finals with him last year.

they had the lakers in game 1 beat them in 2 had them in 3 and 5 they simply couldnt close but that series was close only game 6 was a blowout. this year the nuggets under achived i guess youre saying last year was a aberation and there still the first round exit team they always have been maybe so but i just dont see them in the west finals with ai.

 

At Tuesday, April 27, 2010 2:40:00 AM,  West Coast Slant said...

Despite what "advanced stats" like PER and win shares say as well as the all-star and first team selections, I have always believed that there is no talent gap between Deron Williams and Chris Paul.

I've always loved Deron's game, and believe that it would translate better in any era. Chris Paul, through no fault of his own, is really a beneficiary of the no-handcheck rule that came into effect a few years ago. Deron's bigger, stronger, yet still very fast. He sees the court as well as any point guard, and he is able to do damage without the ball (setting solid picks, running curls, spot up shooting, diving to the hoop, etc.) whereas Paul needs to dominate the ball at all times to be most effective (which, with his skill set, is not a bad thing 95 percent of the time).

Deron only missed the playoffs his rookie season. He's been to the Western Conference finals, and pushed the Lakers in the Semis. This year, he has led the undermanned Jazz within one game of advancing to the second round with a 23-year-old center who logged all of 400 minutes this season and a two-guard masquerading as a small forward.

Not often mentioned, but very much important, was losing his wingman Ronnie Brewer and replacing him with a rookie midseason.

Hornets fans argue that Williams is a "system" guard, but look what Paul's replacement, Darren Collison did in his absence. 19 and 9 on 43 percent from 3 and 48 percent overall...better rookie numbers than Paul or Williams.

While I think Collison should have gone a lot higher in the draft, no one thought he was a lottery pick, and despite what he has done, it's safe to assume that there are very few people who believes he's better than Paul...

There was also the assist discrepancy that you have pointed out on many occasions that NO guards have benefited from.

I'm curious. While you noted that Paul was credited with more assists than he should have been, I wonder if he did not receive credit for all of his turnovers. Both of which would greatly influence a stat like PER.

Your thoughts?

 

At Tuesday, April 27, 2010 4:45:00 AM,  David Friedman said...

Stephen:

I have not specifically noticed LeBron being hesitant to shoot halfcourt shots near the end of quarters but Houston GM Daryl Morey said that the one (minor) flaw in Shane Battier's game is that in such situations Battier makes sure to shoot the ball just after the horn goes off so that this won't affect his FG%. Morey has told Battier that he won't hold such shots against him but Battier apparently responded that other GMs might not feel the same way. It is well known that many players do not like to take such shots because they definitely can adversely affect one's FG%. One player who never hesitated to attempt such shots was Dennis Johnson; if you look at his three point field goal percentage it is terrible but that is largely because many of the threes that he took were not regular shots but rather end of the quarter heaves. The three point shot was not used very frequently in the early to mid 1980s, so those end of quarter heaves killed a lot of players' three point field goal percentages.

 

At Tuesday, April 27, 2010 5:11:00 AM,  David Friedman said...

Marcel:

Did Melo really play his best ball last season or is that simply a myth perpetuated by people who love to blame Iverson and/or praise Billups? In 2008-09 while playing alongside Billups, Melo averaged 22.8 ppg, 6.8 rpg and 3.4 apg while shooting .443 from the field, .371 from three point range and .793 from the free throw line; in 2007-08 while playing alongside Iverson, Melo averaged 25.7 ppg, a career-high 7.4 rpg and 3.4 apg while shooting a career-high .492 from the field, .354 from three point range and .786 from the free throw line. Melo's three point percentage in 2007-08 represented a career-high by a wide margin at that time, so there is every indication that playing with Iverson helped to make Melo a more efficient offensive player. If anything, Melo's game has regressed while playing alongside Billups; this year, Melo shot .458 from the field and .316 from three point range but because he jacked up the second most field goal attempts per game of his career he increased his scoring average to 28.2 ppg.

When the Nuggets initially acquired Iverson--and during the time that Iverson was on the team--Coach Karl said that Iverson's ability to create shots for himself and for his teammates greatly eased the burden on Melo. The stats back up the validity of that sentiment. Naturally, now that Billups is on the team Coach Karl is going to speak highly of him--but the stats do not back up the popularly believed myth that Melo is playing better or more efficiently now. As I noted in this post, although it is asserted that Billups curbed the wilder tendencies of the Nuggets' knuckleheads the truth is that now Billups is taking bad shots and committing careless turnovers. It seems like they have had at least as much influence on him as he has had on them. The other night when the Nuggets were losing again to the Jazz, Charles Barkley looked under the table and joked that he was trying to find J.R. Smith and Chauncey Billups because no one had seen them since the playoffs began. Smith has indeed been awful but to be fair to Billups he has not been terrible, though his three point shot has abandoned him (.300 versus the Jazz so far).

 

At Tuesday, April 27, 2010 5:11:00 AM,  David Friedman said...

Marcel:

Iverson clearly did not seem like himself in his brief run this season but last season he showed flashes of his trademark skills. The problem is that the Pistons insisted on trying to turn him into Billups--and then forcing him to be a bench player--instead of letting him do what he does best. Dumars said that the Pistons brought in Iverson so that their offense would not be so stagnant and predictable--a not so veiled shot at Billups' poor performances in the playoffs for Detroit in his last few seasons as a Piston--but for the most part the Pistons poorly used Iverson.

The 2009 L.A.-Denver series was not really that competitive. The Nuggets stole homecourt advantage in game two but immediately gave it back in game three. Then the Nuggets lost game five by nine and got killed in game six. I never bought the nonsense that they were a legit threat to the Lakers and the outcome of the series proved that I had been right all along.

Iverson averaged just under 22 FGA/g during his career, so even though his shot selection was questionable at times I don't buy that he took "10-15" bad shots a game. Even as hyperbole your assertion makes no sense, particularly in regard to Iverson's season in Denver: he had the second highest field goal percentage and second highest three point field goal percentage of his career in 2007-08. He also had one of the best apg averages of his career plus one of his lowest turnover averages. Iverson played very, very well in Denver and their 50 wins that season was the franchise's best total in 20 years! The revisionist contention that Melo and Iverson did not play well together is absurd. All that happened last year is that the Nuggets added some frontcourt depth (Andersen plus Nene was finally healthy) and the West got a bit weaker, enabling the Nuggets to move up in the standings, get a better seed and win a couple playoff series; if the Nuggets had kept Iverson but those other factors remained in place there is no reason to think that they would have done any worse than they did with Iverson.

 

At Tuesday, April 27, 2010 5:23:00 AM,  David Friedman said...

West Coast Slant:

I prefer a healthy Paul to a healthy DWill--Paul is a bit harder to contain off of the dribble, he rebounds better even though he is smaller, he gets more steals and he is a better free throw shooter. You are right that the no-hand check rule benefits Paul but when comparing players you have to take into account the rules and the current rules make it very hard to defend against super quick guards. That said, I agree with your general contention that DWill is an underrated player.

You make a very astute point regarding Collison: the mainstream media likes to assert that only Paul could be so prolific with the current Hornets team but Collison has put up great numbers even though the team was not that successful (and the team was not exactly tearing up the league even when Paul was healthy).

I have not made an in depth examination of turnover statistics; they are even more subjective than assists and I don't find them very meaningful on an individual level unless I actually see the game and know what happened on those plays. If a point guard throws a great pass and his stone-handed big man fumbles it who gets charged with the turnover? Doug Collins frequently says that he loves Jason Kidd and Steve Nash because they are not afraid to take risks. The reality is that if you look up the records for most turnovers you will see a list of some of the game's greatest players. From a team standpoint you want to keep your turnovers down to 15 or less but the individual allocation of those turnovers does not tell you much. For instance, a Magic Johnson or Kobe Bryant could have five turnovers but if that great player handled the ball most of the game then the team probably had fewer turnovers than it would have had if lesser skilled players dominated the ball; if Magic or Kobe have five turnovers in 40 minutes but their team only has 10 or 12 turnovers then they have done their job as scorers/creators, particularly if none of their turnovers were careless or reckless.

 

At Tuesday, April 27, 2010 12:52:00 PM,  Anonymous said...

marcel

thats what george karl said right when ai left so if he felt like ai made his teamates better or took the burden off melo he wouldnt of said. "he said there are less bad plays more solid plays i think the wasteful cheap possesions 10 to 15 game dont exist anymore".

"also said we have a contested shot chart bad shot chart cheap possesion. when ai was here it was most of the time in the teens sometimes in the 20's since chauncey been here we havent had one in double digits.

also said i dont think it is any question coaching a team for many minutes without a passing and point guard mentality is very frustrating for a coach. sometimes i saw something and couldnt get it done because i didnt have a playmaker out there ai at times had trouble trusting the guy he was throwing the ball too.

also there struggling this year because as kenny smith has said george karl is the leader of that team his personality stamp on the team take phil jackson off the lakers and pop off the spurs those teams arent as good.

melo is playing his best ball with billups he missed 16 games last year why his numbers was a little down. in the 16 games in the playoffs he averaged 27 ppg he is considered top 6-8 player in nba he never was that with ai his leadership has ratched up a notch and this was his best season as a pro with ai they had a great one two punch but no one else got involved enough chauncey is a pure point ai is a scorer this team didnt need a scorer they needed a pure point.

the 09 lakers was better than 08 and the lakers swept denver with ai if they were no better with billups why denver win 2 games and almost win 2 other it was two steals by ariza in game 1 and 3 because denver had lapses with ai they was never in no game. the lakers blew denver out once in 09 denver was up in the fourth quarter in game 5 in la as well i like you david and youre a great analyst but your reaching here there no evidence that they would be the same team with ai on the team rather than billups only ai die hards would think so.

 

At Tuesday, April 27, 2010 2:17:00 PM,  David Friedman said...

Marcel:

How much sense would it make if right after the trade Coach Karl said something like, "We were great with Iverson and I don't know why we traded for Billups?" Use some common sense and look at the numbers that I posted in my last response to you. Melo played much better and much more efficiently with Iverson. That is a fact.

Melo has never made the All-NBA First or Second Team nor has he finished higher than 13th in MVP voting, so who exactly considers him a top 6-8 player? That may be a phrase that talking heads throw around sometimes but the reality is different.

As I explained in my previous response, the 2009 Nuggets benefited greatly from having a deeper and healthier frontcourt than the 2008 Nuggets had. That was the real difference; swapping Iverson for Billups was a cosmetic change more than anything else, though people in the media who have a biased agenda pounced on the opportunity to bash Iverson.

Even now, two years after the trade, the Nuggets still have empty possessions and poor shot selection. Billups himself has gotten into the act, often in crucial late game situations!

I agree that the Nuggets miss Coach Karl's guiding hand.

 

At Tuesday, April 27, 2010 8:48:00 PM,  J said...

David --

It's sad to see you become somewhat irrational and agenda-driven as many of the folks you criticize -- your desire to stick up for Iverson seems to be distorting your analysis of Billups and Denver.

You say "now Billups is taking bad shots and committing careless turnovers." Really? If you look at is TOs this year, his number is 2.4/g, but you need to consider that Denver plays at a much faster pace (more possessions per game) than Detroit did. If you look at statistics that account for pace & # of possessions, Billups for Denver is below is career average TO% and right at his last couple of years in Detroit (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/billuch01.html). Likewise, his TS% is above his career average and in line with recent Detroit years. What are you relying on for these observations? The lack of George Karl for the stretch (which you acknowledge but do not meaningfully consider)is also a significant factor that cannot be so easily discounted (similar to how you attacked some for ignoring the McDyess aspect of the CB/AI trade). Note that the Nuggets have received nearly 4 fewer foul shots per game under Dantley than under Karl (http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/15455/nuggets-get-fewer-calls-under-dantley).

Likewise, your revisionism about the LA-Denver series is wild. (i.e., "The 2009 L.A.-Denver series was not really that competitive. The Nuggets stole homecourt advantage in game two but immediately gave it back in game three. Then the Nuggets lost game five by nine and got killed in game six. I never bought the nonsense that they were a legit threat to the Lakers and the outcome of the series proved that I had been right all along.")

That was a very close series, in particular Game 3 which you pass off as LA routinely taking back home court (plus Game 2 was hardly "stolen" and you seem to forget that Game 1 could well have tipped Denver's way but for a poor inbound pass from Anthony Carter and in which LA trailed entering the 4th Q). LA won Game 3 only through a heroic, 41-pt effort from Kobe, and they required a massive 4th Quarter comeback (32-18). Denver was up by 2pts with just over a minute left when Kobe took a fairly deep 3pt-shot (video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1D2-mUs47Y&feature=related). You know I am a big Kobe fan, but I did not like the shot (on a Kobe-centric possession played entirely at the perimeter) and was worried it would miss and would lead to a round of ill-advised criticism about Kobe ballhogging at crucial moments. But Kobe pulled it out (and trotted back downcourt with his new trademark overbite-intense-stare), and the Lakers regained home court advantage.

I continue to believe that was the biggest shot of the 2009 playoffs for the Lakers. Had that missed, the Lakers likely do not win Game 3 (miss likely gives Denver the ball up 2 with 1 minute left). The Lakers looked like they gave it their absolute all to claw out that late victory, and they were blown out in Game 4 (sure, maybe it was because they "took a game off" having regained homecourt, but they all just looked completely dead in the altitude to me). Had Kobe missed, that series likely goes back to LA at 3-1 in Denver's favor.

Anyhow, my point simply is that your analysis of Denver/Billups seems to be unduly influenced by your (understandable) desire to correct some misperceptions about Iverson. It can be true both that Iverson in his career was an outstanding player, whose impact may often have exceeded what stats easily measure, and that Denver was better off getting the 2008-10 Billups than the 2008-10 Iverson. Indeed, it boggles my mind a little that you even think it's a close call, given Iverson's rather pathetic flame-outs this year in Memphis and Philly.

 

At Wednesday, April 28, 2010 3:15:00 PM,  Anonymous said...

marcel

if thats the case why they trade iverson and they are better without him in the 2 years? karl isnt going to say we great with iverson because they WERENT.

that wouldnt be true the fact melo is playing best ball of career jr smith is as playing best ball as well is due to haveing a pure point guard not a scoreing point like allen iverson melo and ai are too similar that was never going to work thats why they traded ai and got a whole diffrent look in chauney billups a proven winner no disrespect to ai other than carrying a terrible team in a terrible conference in 01 he was like the great pistol pete maravich it was a great great indivdual show but his game never complimented other players it was just a great one on one spectacle but both of them were all time great ai haveing a clearly better than pistol niether was winners or adjusted they game for the betterment of the team.

who is your top 10 mine is 1. lebron not even close 2. kobe 3. wade 4. howard 5. healthy chris paul 6. durant 7. willams 8. carmelo. 9 dirk 10 chris bosh 11 tim duncan 12 brandon roy 13 joe johnson 14 amare 15 pau

melo put up good numbers with ai but as a whole as a player he has matured shown better leadership and been a better player with billups he would admit that especially in the playoffs and this regular season he probably will be top 5 in mvp voteing.

bottom line ai declined the last two years in detroit memphis and philly there is no way he stayed on denver they would be as good with a declined ai they couldnt win but 1 playoff game in two years with a primer ai the frontcourt haveing nene and hilario healthy would help but i dont know if they would shine as much with ai like thay are with a pure point in billups the nuggets wouldnt take that trade back right now so it to make no sense to say they would be as good with iverson as billups

 

At Thursday, April 29, 2010 5:10:00 AM,  David Friedman said...

J:

Your critique is way off base and completely disregards what I actually wrote.

This is what I said regarding Billups: "Billups is taking goofy shots, committing careless turnovers and making bad plays at the most inopportune times."

I did not say anything about his statistics or pace or any of the other stuff you cited; I asserted that he is making bad plays "at the most inopportune times." All you have to do to verify this assertion is watch tape of the Nuggets' games down the stretch of this season as they faded from the second seed; Billups earned the name "Mr. Big Shot" in Detroit but down the stretch this season he has been misfiring from long range, turning the ball over and not organizing the Nuggets' offense very effectively. What happened to the player who supposedly "changed the chemistry" in Denver and served as a de facto coach on the floor?

However, if you are interested in looking at numbers then here are a few for you to consider: Billups posted a career-high TO/g average this season and also had the fifth worst field goal percentage of his career. He had his lowest apg average since the 2003 season. As I indicated above, his shooting percentages plummeted in March and April as the Nuggets desperately battled to secure a good playoff position.

Billups is an excellent player; in my awards season articles I selected him to the All-NBA Third Team in both 2009 and 2010. However, contrary to mainstream media mythology he did not singlehandedly turn around the Nuggets. The Nuggets were already a very good team before he got there. Their playoff run last year resulted from a large combination of factors, including Denver's improved frontcourt depth and the fact that several West teams dropped off a bit. This year, the Nuggets have returned to the form that will likely result in yet another first round loss.

You weaved an interesting fairy tale about the Lakers-Nuggets series last year but I stand by my comments regarding that matchup.

I fail to see how Iverson's performance this season has anything to do with correctly evaluating what took place with Denver's team in 2008 and 2009. I never said that the 2010 Iverson is better than the 2010 Billups; my point is that the 2008 Iverson performed better in Denver than the 2009 Billups did but many people pretend that the opposite is true.

 

At Thursday, April 29, 2010 5:28:00 AM,  David Friedman said...

Marcel:

Karl did, in fact, say that the Nuggets were very good with Iverson during the season that Iverson was there--and he spoke the truth: Iverson helped the Nuggets post their best season in two decades!

Your "fact" about Melo is fiction; as I documented above, Melo has not played his best ball in the past couple seasons and he was actually more efficient and productive when he played alongside Iverson.

Maravich never played on a championship quality team until his final year in Boston. As Jordan used to say when he was compared unfavorably to Magic, you cannot make chicken salad out of chicken (you know what). It is certainly true that Iverson had some shot selection issues and could be difficult to play with at times but to some extent that is true of most players who are prolific scorers. Iverson carried the Sixers to the Finals and he has to be considered one of the greatest six foot and under players in league history.

You can find my top 10 players list for this season in my Awards Season article (i.e., my All-NBA First and Second Teams):

All-NBA First Team
G Kobe Bryant
G Dwyane Wade
C Dwight Howard
F LeBron James
F Dirk Nowitzki

All-NBA Second Team
G Steve Nash
G Deron Williams
C Andrew Bogut
F Kevin Durant
F Amare Stoudemire

Melo is a Third Teamer this season in my opinion. Melo may make the Second Team this year in the official media voting, an honor he has yet to receive. I would be very surprised if he finishes in the top five in MVP voting; he probably will not crack the top 10.

You are right that Iverson declined this season but we don't know what kind of player he really was/could have been in 2009 because the Pistons never used him properly. The important point is that the 2009 Billups did not perform any better in Denver than the 2008 Iverson did but far too many people pretend otherwise.

 

At Thursday, April 29, 2010 3:03:00 PM,  Anonymous said...

MARCEL

andrew bogut over melo lol. you going by position he is 3rd best sf out of 32 he will make second team for sure with media and top 5 6 in mvp for sure not in top 10? this year he was a elite player is my point he never was with iverson.

karl said they were a good team with iverson but said a better team with billups they had there best seasoin maybe ever with billups 2 games from the finals.

at the end of the day iverson was a great player but was too hard to play with and never was willing to change his game. he could be a good sixth man for a contender right now but refuses to come off bench he wasnt a winner he got to on the finals in 01 in a terrible conference and 3 second round but he was never a guy who could play with another superstar and win (i e wade kobe lebron duncan shaq garnett) he had carmelo never got out the first round.

it wasnt billups totally i agree nene came healthy and martin maturation of anthony and play of j r smith billups was the right piece for the team.

 

At Thursday, April 29, 2010 3:37:00 PM,  David Friedman said...

Marcel:

Yes, I am going by position--that is how the All-NBA Teams are selected. Melo has NEVER made the Second Team and he did not have his best season this year. He has NEVER been in the top ten in MVP voting; he may crack the top ten this year but he is not going to make the top five. He is not an elite player unless you are stretching the meaning of "elite" to the breaking point. I define "elite" to be an All-NBA First Team player, a legit MVP contender. Melo is neither.

Most of Denver's improvement came in the one year that Iverson played with the team. That is when the Nuggets had their best season in 20 years, finally cracking the 50 win plateau. That was the breakthrough. Then they bolstered their frontcourt while other Western teams had down years (in 2009). This year they are right back to where they were before, about to go out in the first round. I reject the commonly held assertion that Billups somehow transformed the team. Iverson had an excellent season in Denver; Billups has also played well in Denver.

 

At Thursday, April 29, 2010 11:09:00 PM,  Anonymous said...

MARCEL

melo is border line elite but great player none the less kobe lebron wade he is not. he averaged 28ppg this was his best season he will be in top 5 to 6 in mvp and probably second team all nba so that is undisputed.

between 2003-2008 denver lost in the first round all the years. iverson was on the team 2 of them so what they won 50 games in 08 same result as the previous 4 years before and lakers beat them in every game by double digits where they break through at? you know when it was when they got chauncey billups with healthy nene and martin jr smith carmelo last year in 09 they had they best season as a franchise a 2 seed 54 wins and 10 playoff wins, big factor of that was chauncey billups this is undisputed he not the whole factor nene and martin was healthy but he played a big factor and a better fit for the nuggets than allen iverson was thats my whole point denver organization think soi george karl etc.

they loseing this year because they dont have there coach.

 

At Friday, April 30, 2010 5:58:00 AM,  David Friedman said...

Marcel:

As I have said in previous discussions of this nature, I don't know what terms like "borderline elite" or "borderline All-Star" mean. Are there also players who are "borderline, borderline elite"? At some point, this just gets absurd. Elite means best of the best. The All-NBA First Team players are legit MVP candidates. They are elite. Due to the fact that the All-NBA Teams are selected by position, there could be some years in which maybe one or two All-NBA Second Team players could be called "elite"--but that's about it. Melo is a three-time All-NBA Third Team player whose best finish in MVP voting is 13th. Sorry, he is not an elite player by any meaningful definition of that word.

You are also wrong to suggest so strongly that 2009-10 was Melo's best season. He had his best scoring average in 2006-07, a year in which he posted a better field goal percentage than he did this season while also averaging more assists. Melo's best all-around season was his one full year playing alongside Iverson (2007-08): 25.7 ppg with a career-high shooting percentage from the field (.492) and a career-high rebounding average (7.4).

I already explained why 2007-08 was a breakthrough year--the Nuggets posted their best regular season record in 20 years! The difference last season was not so much the addition of Billups, who was not as productive as Iverson was in 2007-08, but rather that the Nuggets' frontcourt players were healthier. Also, the West simply was not as strong--the Nuggets won just four more games but jumped six spots in the standings. This year, the Nuggets' win total declined by one but they dropped two spots in the standings and are on the verge of going out in the first round. I just don't see that their team has improved intrinsically that much and I certainly don't think that Billups is such a huge upgrade over Iverson. I mentioned some of these numbers before but they bear repeating: in 2007-08, Iverson led the NBA in minutes played and free throws made while ranking third in scoring, eighth in steals and ninth in assists. He had the second best field goal percentage of his career and the second best three point field goal percentage as well. Billups has never had a season that productive and efficient.

Saying that the Nuggets are losing because of Coach Karl's unfortunate illness is just a copout; the Nuggets are losing the same way that they have been losing for years under Karl: poor shot selection, poor defense and a general lack of discipline.

Unless you have new points to make (as opposed to repeating the same ones that I have refuted multiple times in this thread) I consider this particular discussion closed.

 

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Name: David Friedman

Location: United States

"A work of art contains its verification in itself: artificial, strained concepts do not withstand the test of being turned into images; they fall to pieces, turn out to be sickly and pale, convince no one. Works which draw on truth and present it to us in live and concentrated form grip us, compellingly involve us, and no one ever, not even ages hence, will come forth to refute them."--Alexander Solzhenitsyn (Nobel Lecture)

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