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Saturday, August 12, 2023

Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame's 2023 Class Includes Dirk Nowitzki, Dwyane Wade, and Gregg Popovich

The Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame's 2023 class includes 12 inductees: NBA players Pau Gasol, Dirk Nowitzki, Tony Parker, and Dwyane Wade; NBA coach Gregg Popovich; college coaches Gene Bess, Gary Blair, David Hixon, and Gene Keady; WNBA player Becky Hammon; contributor Jim Valvano; the 1976 U.S. Women's Olympic Team (selected by the Women's Veterans Committee). 

The four NBA players and one NBA coach honored in tonight's ceremony all achieved the bulk of their accomplishments from the early 2000s through the mid-2010s. This article will focus on their careers, and the speeches that they gave tonight.

Tony Parker was the event's first speaker. His presenters were Tim Duncan and Manu Ginobili. Parker said of Duncan, "To me, he is the best power forward ever." He also said that Duncan "has a special power with his eyes," noting that Duncan never asked for the ball but just looked at him, and Parker knew that it was time to deliver the ball. "Manu is the most unique player I have ever played with," Parker declared, adding that Ginobili made two kinds of passes: the legendary ones, and the ones that went to the fans in the stands. Parker joked about how much Coach Popovich loved the second kind of pass.

Parker said that if you tell people your dreams and they don't laugh then your dreams aren't big enough. That is important enough to put in bold print: If you tell people your dreams and they don't laugh then your dreams aren't big enough. Who cares about the thoughts and opinions of small people who have small dreams? Such people never accomplish anything worth noting, nor do they have the power to stop anyone from accomplishing things that are worth noting.

Parker became emotional when he talked about how much his father and mother helped him, and he also mentioned his brothers, his two young sons, and his wife. Parker called Gregg Popovich his "second dad." Parker said that he always felt that his career would not be complete without leading France to the EuroBasket title, a goal that he accomplished in 2013 after previously winning two bronze medals and one silver medal in that event.

Parker joins his teammates David Robinson, Tim Duncan and Manu Ginobili in the Hall of Fame. Robinson, Duncan, Ginobili, and Parker played together on the San Antonio Spurs' 2003 championship team, and the Duncan-Ginobili-Parker trio went on to win three more NBA titles (2005, 2007, 2014). Parker received the 2007 Finals MVP after the Spurs swept the Cleveland Cavaliers in LeBron James' first NBA Finals appearance. Parker spent his first 17 NBA seasons with the Spurs before closing out his career with one year in Charlotte. He finished fifth in the 2012 regular season MVP voting while making the All-NBA Team four times and making the All-Star team six times.

Parker was not a great outside shooter, rebounder, or defensive player, but his speed in the open court and his ability to finish in the paint helped him to become a very good scorer and a solid playmaker with career regular season averages of 15.5 ppg and 5.6 apg. It could be argued that Parker did not post Hall of Fame caliber individual numbers, but the counterargument is that he sacrificed individual glory to play a key role in team success; it is useful to think of both Parker and Ginobili as the opposite of flashy scorers like Gilbert Arenas, Carmelo Anthony, and James Harden who lacked both the ability to lead a team to a title and the humility to accept being the second or third option on a championship contender.

Pau Gasol's presenter was Toni Kukoc. Gasol said that Kukoc inspired him, and that when he was a child he would have never imagined that not only would he be inducted in the Basketball Hall of Fame but that Kukoc would be his presenter. Gasol thanked his "friend and mentor" Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, who was also scheduled to be his presenter but was unable to attend the ceremony. Gasol thanked both of his parents for inspiring and motivating him, and he called his younger brother Marc "a special kid." Gasol said that his jump ball versus Marc at the 2015 NBA All-Star game was a special moment. Gasol noted that the 1992 Olympics in Barcelona "changed my life," because watching the Dream Team inspired him so much. 

Gasol mentioned that people who doubted and questioned him provided powerful motivation, including a coach during his youth days who told Gasol there was nothing he could do against the player he was guarding because "He will make the pros and you won't." 

Gasol is proud of his time with the Memphis Grizzlies, noting that he and his teammates built the foundation for what the Grizzlies have become.

Gasol praised "the person who elevated my game like no other, who taught me what it took to win at the highest level, who showed me how hard you had to work and the mentality you needed to have in order to be the best--the commitment you had to make, what it meant and what it took to be a leader: Kobe." Gasol said that the first night he joined the Lakers, Kobe Bryant made a point of introducing himself at 1 a.m. in Gasol's hotel room, delivering a simple message: "He made sure that right away, firsthand, I got the message. He said, 'Welcome to the team. I'm happy you're here. Now let's go win a championship together.' I said, 'Alright I'm in, man. I'm in. Have a good night.' That was it. No crap. Straight to the chase." Gasol added, "I wouldn't be here without you, brother. I wish more than anything that you and Gigi were here today with us. I miss you and love you." Gasol thanked Bryant's widow Vanessa for attending the ceremony, and he thanked her for letting him be an uncle to Bryant's surviving children. Bryant's untimely death alongside his daughter Gianna and seven other passengers in a helicopter crash is a tragedy not only for his family, but also a loss that creates a void that ripples out and touches people across the world. 

Gasol offered a "special thank you to Phil Jackson, a truly incredible man." He said that Jackson taught him and his Laker teammates about mindfulness.

Gasol was not only an NBA star but also a highly decorated FIBA player who led Spain to much success. He declared, "Representing my country was a big deal, and such a privilege."

Gasol thanked the media for providing a platform for the game to reach millions of people. Gasol said that transitioning to his post-playing career was "a big shock," and he praised his wife for helping him through that time. Gasol closed his speech by urging everyone to do whatever they can to help others, emphasizing that by working together we can maximize our impact on society. 

Gasol's eloquence and heartfelt messages are not surprising to anyone who has heard him speak before.

As Gasol readily acknowledged in his speech, his ascent to Hall of Fame status is directly connected to the nearly seven seasons that he spent playing alongside Kobe Bryant with the L.A. Lakers. Prior to teaming up with Bryant, Gasol won the 2002 Rookie of the Year award, earned one All-Star selection and did not make the All-NBA Team in his first eight NBA seasons, and his Memphis teams went 0-3 in playoff series--swept each time--during that period. The arc of Gasol's career changed completely after Memphis traded him to the L.A. Lakers late in the 2007-08 season. 

In the final 27 games of the 2007-08 season, Gasol shot .589 from the field for the Lakers, far exceeding his previous career-high field goal percentage of .538, as well as his .501 field goal percentage during the first 39 games of the 2007-08 season when he played for Memphis. Gasol averaged more than 3.2 offensive rebounds per game in three different seasons with the Lakers, but he averaged less than 3 offensive rebounds per game in every other season of his career. It is reasonable to suggest that the improvements in Gasol's field goal percentage and offensive rebounding as a Laker resulted from the extra defensive attention drawn by Bryant. Also--as Gasol mentioned in his speech--Bryant and Coach Jackson helped him to develop a champion's mindset. The Lakers made three straight NBA Finals appearances from 2008-2010 with Bryant leading the way and Gasol serving as an excellent second option, and they won back to back NBA titles in 2009 and 2010.

Many Lakers other than Bryant seemed satisfied after winning two championships, and the team lost in the second round of the playoffs in 2011 and 2012. Bryant's long tenure as an elite player ended after he ruptured his Achilles late in the 2013 season. Without Bryant leading the way, Gasol averaged 14.0 ppg on .481 field goal shooting as the San Antonio Spurs swept the Lakers in the first round of the 2013 playoffs. Gasol played one more season with the Lakers, but the team went just 27-55 as injuries limited Bryant to six games. Gasol signed with the Chicago Bulls in 2014, and he made the All-Star team in both of his two seasons in Chicago in addition to making the All-NBA Second Team in 2015, but his statistics never again matched the numbers he posted alongside Bryant. Gasol spent a little over two seasons with the San Antonio Spurs, and then played three games for Milwaukee before retiring after suffering a foot injury. 

Gasol's career regular season numbers are solid (17.0 ppg, 9.2 rpg, .507 FG%) but not spectacular. His career playoff series record is 13-4 with the Lakers, and 3-6 with all other teams. Gasol is a Hall of Famer primarily because of his two championship seasons with the Lakers, plus his decorated FIBA career that included three Olympic medals with Spain (two silvers, one bronze), a gold medal in the 2006 World Cup, and seven EuroBasket medals (including gold medals in 2009, 2011, and 2015). 

Gasol was a good low post scorer who could also face the basket, pass to open cutters, rebound, and block shots. He went from being a bit underrated during his Memphis seasons to being a bit overrated as a Laker due to the reluctance of some media members to give Bryant full credit for his significant role in mentoring players so that the team would be successful, and the insistence of those same media members on providing nonsensical critiques of Bryant's shot selection

Gregg Popovich's presenters were David Robinson, Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobili, and Tony Parker. Popovich said that he tried to think of a word to describe this moment, and the one that fits best is "unimaginable." Popovich insisted that he was not displaying false humility and that he genuinely wondered, "What the hell am I doing here? How did this happen?" Popovich became choked up, and said that he is a "Division III guy." Popovich said that he thought about his journey to the Basketball Hall of Fame, and he concluded that there are two reasons: one is a long list of people who he thanked, and the second reason was very brief.

Popovich thanked Hank Egan, who he called a "very underrated coach." Egan coached Popovich at the Air Force Academy.

Popovich praised Dean Smith and Larry Brown as basketball "purists" who would stop practice if a player was just slightly off while doing a rocker step. Popovich said that Don Nelson was a mentor who was the opposite of Smith and Brown because he specialized in doing unorthodox things. Popovich also noted Nelson's knack for figuring out how to exploit matchups.

Popovich made some "special thank yous," starting with Jerry Colangelo for "fulfilling a lifetime dream" by hiring him to coach Team USA, and including Sean Ford, Tim Dooley, and Mike Krzyzewski for their help when Popovich coached Team USA.

Next, Popovich thanked all of his players and assistant coaches. He thanked three people who have been with him during his entire San Antonio journey: R.C. Buford, who Popovich said "should be standing right here," Will Sevening, who Popovich called "trainer of the century," and Tom James, the Spurs' p.r. director. He concluded by thanking his wife of 42 years (Erin, who passed away in 2018), his son Micky, his daughter Jill, and "the stars of the show": his grandchildren. 

The second reason involved one word: "Duh!" Popovich then shook the hands of each of his Hall of Fame presenters. The crowd reacted as if that were the end of his speech, but Popovich insisted that he was not quite done yet. Popovich described the special qualities of each of his four Hall of Fame presenters. David Robinson reluctantly accepted Popovich's cursing as long as Popovich promised to never use the lord's name in vain. Parker accepted Popovich's harsh coaching methods that, Popovich joked, would land him in jail if he used them today. Popovich appreciated that Duncan would nod his head and acknowledge what Popovich said, which made Popovich feel important. Popovich said that Ginobili's wild, uninhibited playing style taught him that sometimes the best thing that a coach can do is shut up and let his players be themselves.

Popovich minimized the importance of Xs and Os, repeatedly stating that personal relationships are what matter most: "What exists is seeing those guys and their kids." Popovich concluded, "Those relationships stay with you forever."

Popovich has coached the San Antonio Spurs to five championships (1999, 2003, 2005, 2007, 2014) while winning the Coach of the Year award three times (2003, 2012, 2014) and compiling the most regular season coaching wins (1366) in NBA history. He ranks third in NBA playoff coaching wins (170), trailing only Phil Jackson (229) and Pat Riley (171). Only Jackson (11) and Red Auerbach (9) have won more NBA titles as a coach than Popovich, who is tied with Riley and John Kundla. Under Popovich's direction, the Spurs won at least 50 games in 18 straight seasons. Popovich is respected for both his tactical acumen and his ability to connect with players ranging from Hall of Famers to reserves who see little playing time. He can say that strategy does not matter and wins don't matter, but the reality is that he devoted his life to becoming a great basketball strategist who won a lot of basketball games.

Dirk Nowitzki's presenters were Jason Kidd and Steve Nash. Nowitzki said that his career was made possible by several qualities and values. He listed each important quality/value, and mentioned people who represented those qualities/values. The first quality he cited is "creativity," and Nowitzki thanked his first NBA coach Don Nelson for being "an incredible basketball mind." Another quality is "leadership." Nowitzki thanked Nash for being a "great role model," "the best teammate I ever had," and "a friend for life." Nowitzki thanked Kidd for instilling the value of "competitiveness" in him and his teammates, calling Kidd a "wonderful, wonderful all-around player" with whom he forged a "bond for life." Nowitzki said that another important quality is "respect," and he mentioned that he did not always like his Hall of Fame classmates but he always respected them. He stated that he has the "utmost respect" for Popovich, who sent a handwritten note to him after Dallas won the 2011 NBA title.

Nowitzki declared that "loyalty" is the quality "more important to me than any other," and he said that Mark Cuban embodies that quality. Nowitzki thanked Donnie Nelson for "taking risks" by recommending that the Mavericks draft him when he was a teenager. He thanked Coach Rick Carlisle for teaching him how to be detail-oriented. Nowitzki thanked Coach Avery Johnson for helping him to become more than a jump shooter. Johnson represents the value of "intensity." 

Nowitzki's teammate Michael Finley represents "professionalism." Nowitzki said, "No one can whistle a symphony" and he praised the "team spirit" in the Dallas organization. "Innovation" is represented by Holger Geschwinder, Nowitzki's personal coach and mentor who "always thought outside the box." The next quality Nowitzki mentioned is "protection," represented by his sister. Nowitzki learned "humbleness" from his parents, and he spoke a special message to them in German. "Passion" is a quality that he learned from his wife, Jess. 

Nowitzki learned "curiosity" from his three children Malaika, Max, and Morris, who he encouraged to find role models who will help them the way his role models helped him. He said that it is important to approach life as a learner and not as a person who thinks that he knows everything. Nowitzki concluded, "When you're green you grow, when you're ripe you rot."

Dwyane Wade was the final inductee. His presenter was Allen Iverson. Wade expressed his appreciation to all of the other inductees, and joked that it was "therapy" for him and Nowitzki, alluding to their battles in the 2006 and 2011 NBA Finals. Wade's first basketball memory is from when he was five years old, and he said that every time he held a basketball something came alive in him. He thanked his father for taking him to various parks to play against grown men. Wade said "the best thing about that time is what the game taught me" about how basketball connects people and also fuels your love of competition. Wade called basketball a "vessel" that changed his life and the life of his family.

Wade described in detail how he practiced Michael Jordan's famous move from the 1991 NBA Finals--immortalized by Marv Albert's famous call, "A spectacular move by Michael Jordan"--over and over while attempting to add some of Jordan's style to his game. 

Wade declared, "My beliefs have always been stronger than anyone's doubts," echoing sentiments expressed by Parker and Gasol. Wade described Iverson as a hero who is not perfect but "relatable and real." Wade said that Iverson demonstrated that "coming from nothing is not a limitation but a motivation." Wade added that he wore number three and an arm sleeve throughout his career as tributes to Iverson.

Wade thanked his coaching mentors for teaching him the value of "we versus me," stating that those lessons enabled him to win NBA championships while playing alongside Shaquille O'Neal and LeBron James. Wade called his family his "lifeline," and he ended his speech by asking his father to join him on stage so that they could enter "basketball heaven" together. There was not a dry eye in the house after that moment.

The careers of Nowitzki and Wade intersected in two NBA Finals, as Wade noted in his speech. In 2006, Wade won the Finals MVP versus Nowitzki's Dallas Mavericks as the Miami Heat overcame a 2-0 deficit to win the series, 4-2. Wade averaged 34.7 ppg while shooting .468 from the field in the 2006 Finals and Nowitzki led the Mavericks with 22.8 ppg despite shooting just .390 from the field. This was the first of Wade's three NBA titles, and the last of O'Neal's four NBA titles as O'Neal won his first (and only) championship after being dealt to Miami by the L.A. Lakers. In 2011, Nowitzki won the Finals MVP while leading the Mavericks to a 4-1 triumph over the Heat in the first season after LeBron James and Chris Bosh joined Wade to form a "super team."

Wade had a good rookie season in 2003-04 (16.2 ppg, 4.5 apg, 4.0 rpg), but he emerged as an All-Star in his second season and he made the All-Star team for the next 11 years. Wade made the All-NBA Team eight times, including a pair of First Team selections (2009, 2010), and he also made the All-Defensive Second Team three times. He finished in the top five in MVP voting twice, peaking at third in 2009 when he averaged a career-high 30.2 ppg to win his only scoring title. 

Wade had already established himself as a future Hall of Famer before James and Bosh joined the Heat. After the Heat's disastrous performance in the 2011 NBA Finals, Wade convinced LeBron James that in order to win a championship James had to accept the responsibility of being the best player on the team. Wade played a secondary but vital role for Miami's 2012 and 2013 championship teams. The Heat reached the Finals all four seasons that James, Wade, and Bosh played together. 

Wade never developed a reliable outside shot, and at a listed height of 6-4 he was a bit undersized for a shooting guard in a sport where height and size matter a lot, so he relied heavily on his tremendous speed, agility, and leaping ability; consequently, Wade's game declined as his athletic skills eroded, and after averaging at least 21.2 ppg in each season from 2005-2013 he averaged more than 20 ppg just once in his final six seasons. Wade's teams went 3-2 in the NBA Finals and 22-10 overall in playoff series, including 14-2 while playing alongside James. Wade averaged 22.0 ppg, 5.4 apg, and 4.7 rpg during his regular season career. Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant are clearly the two greatest shooting guards in NBA history, followed by Jerry West (unless one classifies West as a point guard), but an argument could be made that Wade is the top shooting guard in the next, non-Pantheon tier.

Nowitzki established himself beyond any doubt as a legend by leading the Mavericks to a championship versus a Heat team that went on to win the next two NBA titles. Nowitzki was not the first big man who could shoot from the outside--let's not forget about Bob McAdoo and Larry Bird, to name just two MVPs who stood at least 6-9 and had a great shooting touch--but as the league transitioned from inside-out play to outside-in play Nowitzki embodied the concept of the "stretch four," a player with power forward size and skills who could stretch opposing defenses by making three pointers.

Even though Nowitzki was a great shooter, it would be a mistake to ignore the other aspects of his game, most notably his rebounding prowess. He averaged at least 8.4 rpg for nine straight regular seasons, and he averaged 10.0 rpg in 145 playoff games. Spanning the 2001 and 2002 playoffs, Nowitzki had four straight postseason games with at least 30 points and at least 15 rebounds, something that had only been accomplished two other times since 1970 (both by Kareem Abdul-Jabbar). In 2003, Nowitzki had at least 30 points and 10 rebounds in back to back game sevens, joining Hakeem Olajuwon, Kevin McHale, Larry Bird, Elvin Hayes, Wilt Chamberlain and Bob Pettit as the only players to accomplish that feat.

Nowitzki won the 2007 regular season MVP, and he finished in the top five in MVP balloting in 2005 and 2006 while making the All-NBA Team 12 times, including four First Team selections (2005-07, 2009). The 14-time All-Star became just the seventh player to join the elite 30,000 point club, an exclusive group that still has just eight members.

Although Mark Cuban often brags about how smart and data driven he and his Mavericks are, the reality is that for most of Nowitzki's career the franchise did not do a great job of providing him with a superior supporting cast--and when he finally had one in 2011, the Mavericks promptly dismantled it, foreshadowing how the Mavericks dismantled the 2022 team that Luka Doncic led to the Western Conference Finals. As a result, Nowitzki's career playoff series record is just 13-14. Of course, the most notable of those 14 defeats happened after the 2007 regular season during which the Mavericks posted a league-best 67-15 record: the Golden State Warriors defeated the Mavericks 4-2 in the greatest playoff upset in NBA history, a series during which Nowitzki did not shine (to put it mildly) while his former coach Don Nelson coached circles around Avery Johnson, a good coach who made the foolish decision to slow the tempo down versus the Warriors instead of playing to the strengths that enabled his team to dominate during the regular season. Nowitzki erased any memories of the 2006 Finals collapse and the 2007 first round loss with his epic performance in the 2011 NBA Finals.

Wade and Nowitzki met twice at the summit in the NBA Finals, and they both retired after the 2019 season; NBA Commissioner Adam Silver honored both of them as special selections to that season's All-Star Game.  

After 2023 Basketball Hall of Fame inductee Jim Valvano was diagnosed with terminal cancer in 1992, he gave his famous ESPYs  speech during which he said that every day a person should laugh, think, and be moved to tears. If you do those three things, he declared, then you have had a full day. Every time I watch the Basketball Hall of Fame ceremony, I have a full day.

Articles About Recent Hall of Fame Induction Ceremonies:

Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame's 2022 Class Includes NBA Players Lou Hudson, Tim Hardaway, and Manu Ginobili (Class of 2022)  

The Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame Welcomes 15 New Members and Honors Bill Russell a Second Time (Class of 2021)

Kobe Bryant Headlines the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame Induction Ceremony (Class of 2020) 

The Basketball Hall of Fame Welcomes A Diverse Class of 12 Inductees (Class of 2019)

Thoughts and Observations About the 2018 Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame Enshrinement Ceremony (Class of 2018)

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posted by David Friedman @ 11:44 PM

16 comments

16 Comments:

At Tuesday, August 15, 2023 2:43:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

in recent history, TD seems to be the all-time great who would be most capable of (1) impacting the game while playing on a Dream Team in a role without needing the ball, focusing more on D and rebounding, setting picks (without emphasizing scoring), while also being CAPABLE of (2) impacting the game while playing a role in which he was a major scorer. (not saying he SHOULD have a role that involves not having the ball much, just that he COULD.) agree?

 
At Tuesday, August 15, 2023 3:35:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

If you're talking about Duncan, you seem to be forgetting he was the leader/captain of the biggest failure for USA men's basketball history in 2004 only winning bronze. And if we're talking about the top 15-20 all-time greats, I could be wrong but he's probably #1 or towards the very top of that list of failing to make the Finals with his team being the #1 seed. I think this happened 4x, including losing in the 1st round once. I don't know, maybe he performed better as the perceived underdog or was comfortable that way. Not saying that he wasn't able to impact the game in different ways often, which he was able to, but I think this notion about Duncan is overplayed. He and anyone else whose role is secondary or less focusing on rebounding and setting picks, etc. can only ultimately succeed if his teammates having the more primary roles on the team are not only doing very well but excelling. All of these are important roles, but players with secondary roles or less are reliant too much on their teammates.

 
At Tuesday, August 15, 2023 8:52:00 PM, Blogger David Friedman said...

Anonymous:

Duncan had a short FIBA career, winning a pair of gold medals in the FIBA World Championship (1999, 2003) before being the leading scorer and rebounder on the Team USA squad that settled for the bronze medal in the 2004 Olympics. Duncan was very disappointed by the team's performance and by the way that FIBA games are officiated, and after the Olympics he declared that he was almost certain he would never again play in a FIBA event, which proved to be the case. So, I am inclined to agree with the second Anonymous that the evidence does not support the assertions by the first Anonymous regarding Duncan in a Dream Team scenario.

Duncan had a long career during which he won five titles while posting a 5-1 record in the NBA Finals and a 35-13 overall record in playoff series. It is true that his team lost some series as the favorite but his overall playoff record both in terms of individual dominance and team success is quite impressive. For comparison purposes, Shaq went 32-13 in playoff series (including 4-2 in the NBA Finals), Kobe went 33-10 in playoff series (including 5-2 in the NBA Finals), and LeBron's playoff series record thus far is 41-12 (including 4-6 in the NBA Finals).

 
At Tuesday, August 15, 2023 10:19:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

(first anon)

I guess my first message was unclear:

TD's Team USA's were not true Dream Teams where, in some scenarios, he didn't need to score.

A true Dream Team would be more like THE Dream Team (1992 Olympics).

I feel that, among the greats of the late '90s and 2000s, TD could've contributed more as a NON-SCORER on the 1992 Dream Team, while nonetheless being able to be a huge scorer on great teams (5 NBA titles).

Who else, among the greats of the late '90s and 2000s, could've contributed more as a non-scorer?

 
At Tuesday, August 15, 2023 10:46:00 PM, Blogger David Friedman said...

Anonymous:

I am not sure how to answer that question. On the actual 1992 Dream Team, Scottie Pippen had a huge impact as a defensive player and playmaker without putting up big scoring numbers. Jason Kidd never lost a game as a member of Team USA, and his impact was felt almost exclusively on defense and as a playmaker. Kidd was a key member of the 2008 "Redeem Team."

Which version of Tim Duncan are we placing on the 1992 Dream Team in this hypothetical exercise? The very young or very old Duncan may very well have just defended and set screens, but it would be a waste to not let prime Duncan go to work in the post, because no international teams in 1992 had anyone who could guard prime Duncan.

 
At Wednesday, August 16, 2023 11:03:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Of course Duncan could/would benefit most any team, but in what capacity? The world has caught up some from 20 years ago, but Team USA should still be winning the Olympics every time including 2004. But, 20 years ago the world had not caught up enough to beat Team USA. Duncan was given the opportunity to be the man and do his thing. He only averaged 13 and 9 in 26mpg. Actually, Iverson was leading scorer at 13.8ppg. They didn't just lose once, but lost 3x and once was a blownout vs a bad Puerto Rico team who only went 2-4 in other games. And their 2 other wins were close wins vs. Australia and Angola.

Duncan had a great track record for the NBA. But he also had basically the perfect scenario for an all-time great and amazing stability with his organization, coach, and teammates. He had 'the team' basically 15+ years and made the Finals only 6x. Still great, and he left a lot out there. When I say 'the team', I mean a team definitely good enough to win and at the very top of the league. Being a #1 seed definitely equates to having 'the team' unless there's maybe major injury, etc. that happens. James has had a similar situation as far as having 'the team' around him. Maybe not quite as many chances but close. Kobe had maybe 8-9 chances to make the Finals at most, and cashed in 7x. What I'm saying is that for as amazing as Duncan was and as much success as he had, he should've done a lot better given what he had around him if he's viewed as a top 5, even top 10 player all time. And he is certainly not at the top of my list for choosing someone to lead a great team, Dream Team or not.

FIBA is also confusing or international basketball in general. The USA is supposed to adapt to other sports that weren't invented here in international competition, but when it comes to basketball, we're supposed to adapt to international rules for some reason.

 
At Wednesday, August 16, 2023 1:03:00 PM, Blogger David Friedman said...

Anonymous:

Duncan led Team USA in scoring (15.6 ppg) and rebounding (8.0 rpg) as Team USA won the 2003 FIBA Americas Tournament 10-0 to qualify for the 2004 Olympics. Plagued by foul trouble in the Olympics (Duncan led the team with 3.8 fouls per game--and in FIBA play, a player fouls out with five fouls, not six, unlike the NBA), Duncan led the team in rebounding (9.1 rpg) and ranked just behind Iverson in scoring (12.9 ppg).

I discussed the reasons for Team USA's FIBA performances--good and bad--in a series of articles that can be found in the right hand sidebar of 20 Second Timeout's main page, so I will not attempt to summarize here.

Duncan was blessed with team stability in the NBA in terms of the front office, coaching staff, and core teammates Ginobili and Parker, but he never played with one of the NBA's 50 Greatest Players in their prime (David Robinson was well past his prime when Duncan became a Spur). Other multiple championship winners of the post-Jordan era--including Shaq, Kobe, and LeBron--all played with at least one Top 50 player in his prime.

I try to avoid ranking the players within my Pantheon, so I am not going to delve into whether Duncan is the 14th best player to lead a great team or the eighth best, or whatever. Duncan earned his place in pro basketball's Pantheon, and I rank him as the greatest power forward of all-time.

I agree that it makes no sense for FIBA rules to be so different from U.S. rules, particularly since basketball was invented in the U.S. (albeit by a Canadian).

 
At Wednesday, August 16, 2023 4:58:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Right, he didn't lead Team USA in 2004 like you mentioned earlier. His numbers are not extraordinary by any means and against competition much weaker than any NBA roster.

Yes, Duncan didn't play with another top 50 player in his prime, but his teams/coach/front office more than made up for that and then some. The casts he had around himself basically every single year of his career were at the very top of the league. And even when he was well past his prime relegated to lesser, though still important, roles on his teams, his teams were still excelling. Kobe, James, and Jordan just to name 3 all-time greats do not have that privilege of having secondary roles and expect their teams to compete for titles.

I'm drawing a blank, but who was James' top 50 teammate in his prime that he has played with? Shaq also never had one, though played with Kobe at the beginning of Kobe's prime and Kobe is certainly a top 50 player all-time.

 
At Wednesday, August 16, 2023 5:31:00 PM, Blogger David Friedman said...

Anonymous:

The FIBA game and the NBA game differ in many ways. There are players who starred in FIBA play who washed out in the NBA, and there are all-time NBA greats (such as Duncan) who did not necessarily dominate in FIBA competition. Again, I discussed these concepts at length in prior articles, so I am not going to rehash it here.

I should have clarified my reference regarding Top 50. Obviously, the official 50 Greatest Players List was selected in 1996, before Duncan even entered the NBA. Whether you consider who would be Top 50 if the list were made now, or even just look at the official Top 75 List that the NBA recently released, it is clear that Shaq and Kobe (who had each other, while Shaq also later had Wade) plus LeBron (who had Wade and Anthony Davis at different times) had better top shelf teammates than Duncan (Kawhi Leonard is Top 75, but he had just begun his career when he won a title with an aging Duncan).

I think we are just going to agree to disagree about how much help Duncan had, and how highly Duncan should be ranked all-time.

 
At Wednesday, August 16, 2023 6:43:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

(first anon)

FWIW I wasnt ranking TD. I was basically saying he had the versatility to (A) play a Rodman-like D/rebounding/picks style, without handling the ball or shooting much, if he so chose or was on a TRUE Dream Team (1992 version) or (B) play a full game involving major scoring.

That's all I was originally saying FWIW. I think almost all other stars from last 30 years were more ball-dependent and couldn't play the style without the ball.

 
At Monday, August 21, 2023 10:58:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

There's limited games played in FIBA competition, so lesser players could potentially go on a good run in those games which wouldn't translate over to a longer schedule and tougher competition in the NBA. But any all-time top 20-30 great should still be able to dominate FIBA especially when the competition is much weaker. It's still basketball in the end. The slight changes in rules aren't that drastic.

I understand the having a great teammate argument, but having a great team is much more important. Duncan's cast was better a lot of the years than those players you mentioned had. Anthony Davis is also unlikely regarded as top 50 all-time, and he's hurt about the same amount of time as he's healthy, so his value isn't that high. Even if Davis is playing like a top 5 current player in the league and healthy, James is old and the rest of his team isn't that good. No player at James' age with the teammates he's had recently would be expected to do much in the playoffs nor would they have. Duncan had better casts pretty much every year compared to what James has had these past few seasons.

I still view Duncan top 15ish all-time or better, not sure where exactly. It's great and there's value in elevating a bad/sub-par team to relatively good status, but where we distinguish top 5 all-time from top 15 from top 20 etc, is what they can do at the top and also relative to how many chances they had up to be at the top. Duncan won 4 titles as the man out of about 15 tries, and then 1 more later with a much lesser role. That's still great, but someone like Kobe accomplished more with fewer chances for one example.

Anonymous, yes, Duncan could contribute without being ball dependent. But, he had no other choice as he aged if he wanted to keep winning. And also, he had that opportunity since his cast was still so good for so long, unlike James recent casts, for example. I think most of the top 15 or so all-time greats could do this given the circumstances Duncan had or that they could still influence the game mightily without being ball dependent. Duncan still had to accept this role as he aged, but he didn't stay as dominant being the #1 option for as long or as well as guys like Jordan and Kobe, for examples. And sure, Duncan could've helped the 1992 Dream Team. But, you could insert anyone in the world for anyone on that team, and that team would've still won every game super easily.

 
At Monday, August 21, 2023 12:28:00 PM, Blogger David Friedman said...

Anonymous:

As I have explained in many articles, the rules differences are significant. Also, Team USA is not typically structured so that one player dominates, because Team USA is usually constructed to rely on overall talent and depth superiority.

I am not diminishing the value of supporting casts in general, or Duncan's supporting cast in particular. I just provided some context for consideration regarding Duncan compared to other Pantheon players.

James has won four titles in 10 Finals appearances spread out over 20 seasons, so I don't see how that is better than Duncan's five titles in six Finals appearances spread out over 19 seasons. Duncan and James faced each other in three playoff series (all NBA Finals), with Duncan winning two out of three (and Duncan was a Ray Allen three pointer away from going three for three in those series).

I would take Kobe over James and Duncan, as I have indicated in earlier articles. I agree that Kobe had a longer stretch as an MVP level player than Duncan did.

 
At Monday, August 21, 2023 3:41:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I understand FIBA is different than the NBA. But, FIBA rules shouldn't relegate a top 15-20 player all-time minimum to a 13 and 9 guy in his prime when his team needs him to dominate and score at least 20-25ppg and rebound 10-12rpp minimum. What I'm essentially saying is that Duncan couldn't or couldn't do this as regularly as other all-time greats and that people shouldn't rate Duncan as highly as they do sometimes. Duncan was the leader of that team and he still had much more talent around him than any other player on any other team at those Olympics.

I fully understand the context, but I think a lot of people get caught up on who the #2 is too much. Looking at the overall cast is much more important than just looking at who a player's #2 is.

I didn't say what James has done team-wise is better than Duncan, but I do think James has done better. If purely looking at # of titles, sure, Duncan has 1 more, though his 5th was when he was old with a much lesser role so that is quite different. But, if looking at context, Duncan had a title-worthy team around him every single year of his 19-year career and made only 6 Finals. Granted, James has played in the weaker conference most of his career, but he has had 12, maybe 13, title worthy teams or fringe title worthy teams and made the Finals 10x. Given what each had to work with, James seems like he has done much better to me relative to Duncan. James has always had to be dominant for his teams to go far. Even in his prime, this was often not needed of Duncan. Sure, we could nitpick every title team. I could make excuses for Duncan too and say that he won a title in a lockout year, one title when Shaq decided to get healthy on company time, another when Shaq/Kobe couldn't get along, another when a young role player Kawhi outplayed James in the Finals, etc. Duncan has obviously done amazing in his career still.

 
At Monday, August 21, 2023 7:48:00 PM, Blogger David Friedman said...

Anonymous:

Did you watch the 2004 Olympics? How many times have you watched Team USA in FIBA competition overall? Are you aware that Shaquille O'Neal averaged 9.3 ppg and 5.3 rpg in the 1996 Olympics? Duncan's Team USA numbers are a reflection of (1) how Team USA was constructed and how the Team played, and (2) the rules differences (and officiating differences). The FIBA game is a 40 minute game with a five foul disqualification rule, a trapezoidal lane, a shorter three point line (hence more congestion in the paint), and a different goaltending rule. I just don't buy whatever point you are trying to make about Duncan's FIBA stats somehow downgrading his overall greatness.

Duncan's teams were "title-worthy" mainly because he was on them. Replace him with an average big man, and those teams are going nowhere. So, again, I disagree with many of your basic premises, and I suggest that we are just going to have to agree to disagree about Duncan.

 
At Wednesday, August 23, 2023 2:22:00 AM, Anonymous Michael said...

I apologize for deviating from the original topic of the article but I would like to weigh in on the Duncan/LeBron debate. Duncan won five championships with the same franchise and as far as I know, he wasn’t overly involved in deciding who his teammates were. Duncan simply played hard and didn’t seem to care about the narrative surrounding his championships or who received the most credit.

LeBron James has won four champions and was rightfully selected as the Finals MVP for all of them. It’s also true that James has only won champions by hopping from handpicked superteam to handpicked superteam. He has had spectacular playoff meltdowns where not only was his play inexcusably awful but there were serious questions about his effort level. I mentioned that Duncan appeared to be indifferent to the narrative surrounding his champions. This is in stark contrast to James’ apparent obsession with getting all of the credit in victory and him being seemingly allergic to accepting any blame in defeat.

A reasonable case could be made for ranking James ahead of Duncan but there is definitely a valid argument for ranking Duncan ahead of James and it is discouraging that so many people would balk at the notion of Duncan being ranked higher than James because they have convinced themselves or have been brainwashed into thinking that the greatest of all-time discussion is limited to LeBron James or Michael Jordan.

 
At Tuesday, September 05, 2023 2:47:00 AM, Blogger David Friedman said...

Just to be clear, some of the rules differences that I mentioned--specifically FIBA's trapezoid lane and shorter three point shot--applied to the 2004 Olympics when Duncan played for Team USA but have subsequently been changed. FIBA now uses a regular lane configuration, and FIBA has moved the three point line back to almost the same distance as the NBA's three point line.

 

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