K.C. Jones: Consummate Champion
Players and teams talk so much about the thrill of winning just one championship that it is worth remembering and emphasizing that K.C. Jones, who passed away earlier today at the age of 88, won two NCAA titles, an Olympic gold medal, and eight NBA titles as a player before winning two NBA titles as an assistant coach (1972 Lakers, 1981 Celtics) and two more NBA titles as a head coach. Only two players have won more NBA titles than Jones: his Boston teammates Bill Russell (11) and Sam Jones (10).
K.C. Jones may be the most underrated head coach in NBA history. He not only coached the best Boston Celtics teams of the 1980s--one of which, the 1986 Celtics, will forever be on the short list of greatest single season teams ever--but his regular season winning percentage of .674 ranks sixth in NBA history (minimum of 200 regular season games coached), trailing only Steve Kerr, Phil Jackson, Billy Cunningham, Larry Bird, and Gregg Popovich (Jones is only .001 percentage points behind Popovich, so Jones may move past Popovich on that list this season unless the San Antonio Spurs perform much better than expected). Jones' playoff winning percentage of .587 ranks 13th in NBA history (minimum of 60 playoff games coached). Jones is one of eight coaches who have won two NBA titles; only six coaches have won more than two NBA titles (Phil Jackson, Red Auerbach, John Kundla, Pat Riley, Gregg Popovich, and Steve Kerr).
As a player, Jones was not a great shooter but he was cerebral, tough, and athletic. Jones was drafted by the NFL's L.A. Rams, and he might have made the final cut had he not injured his knee; despite only spending a brief time with the Rams, Jones is credited with being the first defensive back to utilize "bump and run" coverage technique.
Jones' partnership with Russell dates back to their days at the University of San Francisco, where they captured NCAA titles in 1955 and 1956 while putting together a 55 game winning streak. Russell was such a dominant defender that he would tell Jones to run to a particular spot so that Russell could block a shot directly to Jones to start the fast break! The combination of elite athletic ability and supreme basketball IQ/mental toughness is impossible to beat. It is not an accident that Russell and Jones won at every level (college, Olympics, NBA), and anyone who assumes that they would not be very successful as players in this era fails to understand the essence of championship competition.
Jones' NBA statistics are not eye-popping, but he ranked third in the league in assists for three straight seasons (1964-66), each time trailing only Oscar Robertson and Guy Rodgers. The Celtics won the championship during each of those seasons, and it speaks volumes that Jones was not only a stout defensive player for those squads but that he was also the team's quarterback after Bob Cousy retired.
Jones' Boston teammate Tommy Heinsohn passed away a few weeks ago. I interviewed Heinsohn on June 10, 2004. A few days later, I interviewed K.C. Jones. At the time, I was working on an article about their Boston teammate Sam Jones (the article appeared in the December 2004 issue of Basketball Digest), but our wide ranging conversation covered not only Sam Jones but also Bill Russell, Larry Bird, Bill Fitch, Phil Jackson, Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, and more.
My K.C. Jones interview has never been published in full anywhere, though some quotes and insights from that interview have appeared in various articles that I wrote. Here, in tribute to Jones, is that June 20, 2004 interview:
Friedman: "The idea for this article came out of an
interview that I did with Slick Leonard, the Pacers’ broadcaster. He mentioned
that he felt that Sam Jones is the most underrated guard in the history of the
NBA. From your perspective as a teammate of Sam's, what made him a special,
unique player?"
Jones: "What made him unique? That's kind of hard to
explain. He had such supreme confidence in his shot. One example that I recall
is when he went for a nine foot jumper and Wilt came over to block it and while
Sam was in the air he said, 'You can't get this one baby' and it went off the
backboard and in."
Friedman: "Was that the game that Wilt went after Sam? I
read about a game in which Sam so infuriated Wilt—telling him that he couldn't
block his shot—that Wilt went after him."
Jones: "I'm not sure if it was that game. I don't think that
Wilt would go after somebody for trash talking. I think that something physical
happened and Wilt went over to shake Sam's hand to say, 'Let's put it behind
us' and Sam thought that he was coming after him so he picked up a stool from
behind the basket."
Friedman: "Oh, so it was kind of a misunderstanding."
Jones: "Yeah."
Friedman: "I noticed in researching this article that Sam
Jones averaged 27 points per game in game seven situations and that the Celtics
were 9-0 in those games. Obviously, that was above his regular season scoring
average. What enabled him to be so successful in clutch situations?"
Jones: "He very seldom went to the basket for the layup. He
would drive and then pull up for the jumper. We did all kinds of things to get
him open or to get Havlicek open. That's the way we played. That's similar to
what Detroit is
trying to do now, work for your teammate. Sam could go one-on-one. He had a
stutter step that would kind of halt your defense and then all of a sudden he
just glides by you. He did that to me in a scrimmage and it just totally blew
my mind that he was so smooth with that. He was driving on the right side from
around the top of the key extended. It looked like he was going to pull up. He
just hesitated, I stopped and then he just went by me. In our offense we always
tried to get him open for shots. When Russell would get the ball for his play
he could just take the ball and shoot it because it was the '6' play but he
would not shoot the ball unless Sam and Havlicek were not open. That's the way
we played. So we liked to get out shooters open because that's the high
percentage play."
Friedman: "Would that be a play where Russell would be
getting the ball on the block looking for cutters and Sam would cut off of
him?"
Jones: "He'd mainly look for our shooters. He wouldn't look
for me or Satch (Tom Sanders), even if I was open. One time he got an offensive
rebound and I was five feet away from him saying, 'Bill, Bill, Bill' and he
looked me in the eye, reached around and threw the ball in the corner to Sam,
which I thought was the right play. Some other player in my position would have
been (ticked) off and then you have a problem but that's not the way we did it."
Friedman: "Right, because your role was not as a shooter on
the team."
Jones: "Yeah, but other teams have guys who are not shooters
but if they are not passed the ball they are ready to fight. My point is, I
considered that the best play because we want the ball in the hands of the guy
with the highest shooting percentage."
Friedman: "You mentioned guarding Sam in a scrimmage. Did
you usually guard him or were you usually on the same team with you playing
point and him playing shooting guard?"
Jones: "I didn't usually guard him. I don't know what
happened in that practice, but that was the first time I guarded him, I
believe. I guarded Bill Sharman most times in practice. I either guarded
Sharman or Bob Cousy."
Friedman: "You mentioned the Detroit Pistons. For my readers
who did not have a chance to see Sam play, what current or recent guard would
you say is most similar to him either in shooting ability or performance in the
clutch?"
Jones: "I guess Jerry West would be one. Maybe Hamilton. He would be
another."
Friedman: "Hamilton from Detroit?"
Jones: "Yeah."
Friedman: "That's interesting. Tommy Heinsohn also mentioned
him. Heinsohn mentioned Hamilton
because he has a variety of shots—the long distance game, the mid-range game
and the driving game. So you would see a similarity from that standpoint?"
Jones: "Oh, yeah. More times than not when Hamilton is driving he pulls up for the
jumper. If he has the defense beaten he goes straight to the basket. More times
than not he's running without the ball and he spends a lot of energy running
around to get open and then he has to go to the other end and play aggressive
defense. That man is in awesome shape. What's like Sam is that he moves without
the ball and when he gets the ball he's going right up for the shot."
Friedman: "What's interesting is that when I brought that
comparison up to Bob Cousy, who I later interviewed, he didn't like that particular
comparison because he didn't think that there was anyone in the modern game who
could really be compared with Sam. It's interesting to me to talk to his
teammates and hear their different perspectives. You are the second one who
brought up Rip Hamilton, which is interesting to me."
Jones: "What did Cousy say as far as comparisons go?"
Friedman: "Well, he was looking strictly on the basis of
skill level and when I brought up that Tom Heinsohn had mentioned Rip Hamilton,
Cousy replied that, for one thing, he didn't see Hamilton as a Hall of Famer and to him that
was disrespectful of Sam Jones' talent. He felt that Rip Hamilton has not
proven that he is a Hall of Famer. I made the point that what Heinsohn had said
to me was not that Hamilton is as good as Sam Jones, but that their styles are
similar in terms of having a variety of shots. There are very few modern guards
who really have a complete game in terms of being able to shoot from deep, from
mid-range and being able to drive. Most guards today only have one of the
three."
Jones: "Yes."
Friedman: "So there is a comparison there from the
standpoint of style. No one is saying that Rip Hamilton is an all-time great—"
Jones: "It's a little early for that."
Friedman: "Right, of course."
Jones: "He's only been in the league a few years."
Friedman: "Right, he's only been around for a few years and
this is his first championship."
Jones: "Yeah. You take Kobe,
you take Hamilton,
you take Sam, you take Jerry West—in crunch time you are looking for these
people, you want these people to have the ball."
Friedman: "So from the standpoint of producing in the clutch
you would put Kobe
in there as well because he hits last second shots. He and Sam had different
playing styles, but they both produced in the clutch."
Jones: "The style is different, but what I'm saying is that
in crunch time you want the ball to go to your best shooters. That's what I'm
saying. I'm not talking about style—whether they use a spin move or all
that—I'm saying in crunch time the ball goes to your best shooters. They
approach it in different ways."
Friedman: "Sure. Another thing I want to ask you about—and I
know that a similar question was once asked of Bill Russell about a
hypothetical matchup with Kareem and his response was, 'Young man, you have the
question backwards'—I'm interested from your perspective how you would picture
a matchup of Sam Jones in his prime playing against Kobe or McGrady, what would
that matchup be like, what strengths would Sam Jones use to counteract Kobe or
McGrady, who are both a little taller than Sam?"
Jones: "Kobe
would have a very difficult time staying with Sam defensively."
Friedman: "From a speed standpoint?"
Jones: "Yes, from speed or quickness, whatever you want to
call it. Could Kobe stay with Hamilton? I don't think so. Kobe
couldn't stay with Sam and maybe Sam couldn't stay with Kobe. Thinking in terms of guarding each
other, I don't see it in that mode. There are changes and moves that can be
made; they can guard other people so that they don't wear themselves out and
wear their minds out guarding the best player on the other team."
Friedman: "So if they played against each other it would be
a real shootout because they both would be scoring a lot."
Jones: "Well, yeah. They are masters of the offensive end,
they don't master the defensive end. So you have to be someone who is defensive
oriented to guard the Kobes and the Same Jones and the Hamiltons. That's what
happened in Chicago when Drexler from Portland was guarding Jordan (in the 1992 Finals). I
thought that was not a good move, putting Drexler on Jordan."
Friedman: "You're wearing out your best player."
Jones: "Yes, plus you experience a defeatist attitude, a
sense of fear, guarding Jordan.
Why would I put one of my best shooters out there to guard Jordan? It
doesn’t make any sense to me."
Friedman: "So from your standpoint, if Sam Jones was playing
at the same time as Kobe
they might not even be guarding each other. You might cross-match or do
something so that they wouldn't be facing each other."
Jones: "I think that would be the best move. If you saw
Drexler in the game, it just took his mind away."
Friedman: "You're talking about the game in the Finals when Jordan hit all
those three pointers."
Jones: "Yeah, whichever game that was. I know that Drexler
is an offensive player and great at being an offensive player. How many great
shooters do you see who are great on the defensive end?"
Friedman: "Very few."
Jones: "Very few."
Friedman: "Actually, Jordan would probably be one of the
exceptions since he was Defensive Player of the Year in addition to winning all
of the scoring titles. But your point is well taken. If you have a minute, I'd
like to switch gears. I'd be interested to ask you some questions specifically
about your career for use in a future article. I see some parallels between
your coaching career and Phil Jackson's coaching career in terms of reluctance
in some quarters to give you credit for your teams' success. With Phil Jackson,
he has won nine championships but people say, 'He always had the best player.
He had Jordan or he had
Shaq' and I think that kind of echoes from your career in Boston when you won championships but people
said that you had a Hall of Fame frontline. Do you see a parallel in that sense?"
Jones: "There was a great coach before I got to the Celtics,
Bill Fitch. He was a great coach. He did a super job of winning the
championship in 1981. I had the same players and went to the Finals four times
in five years and won two championships."
Friedman: "Right. That’s a very similar run to what Jackson just had with the
Lakers, winning three titles in five years."
Jones: "What you mentioned was that because I had these high
profile players, that's how I was able to have a championship team and go to
the Finals that often. That's what you're saying, right?"
Friedman: "I'm not saying that. I'm saying that's a
criticism that others have said. I don't think that it is valid. I think that
it is a challenge—and I wanted you to speak about this—when you have that many
talented players to get them to accept roles and to understand what has to be
done to win."
Jones: "I was speaking to the criticism. Of course, I'm not
an entertainer, which all coaches should be, because the media lives off of
that. I was just the opposite. I guess you are saying that (people say) that Jackson was a quiet guy
sitting on the sidelines and only reason he won was because he had Jordan and
Pippen. That really doesn’t make a lot of sense to me."
Friedman: "I agree."
Jones: "Here's what you've got. In college, the best coaches
are the ones who do the best scouting. They come up with the Okafors and the
Bill Russells and the Kareems. Without these great players, these great
individuals, how are you going to get there? Shaq and Kobe, they won for three years. Then Jackson is criticized for
having Jordan and Pippen. I don't understand that."
Friedman: "I don't understand it either. I think that it is
a great challenge. The team that you had in Boston, which had Bird, McHale and Parish—any
one of those guys could demand 25 shots a game. You were able to get them to
work together to understand how to share the ball and—"
Jones: "It's the same thing with Bill Fitch. He had the same
players and he did a great job with them to win a championship. But there
wasn't any question that he had Larry Bird and Kevin McHale and Danny Ainge. He
is not mentioned in the same way as Jackson
and I am."
Friedman: "When you first took over in Boston what was the biggest challenge that
you faced?"
Jones: "The biggest obstacle is always the communication
factor. If you don't have good communication between you and your top players,
then you are really alone. What Jackson did in Chicago was he had Jordan
and Pippen as his protectors. Jerry Sloan did that in Chicago
and he also did it with Malone and Stockton in Utah. I'm sure Jackson did that with Shaq."
Friedman: "So the key thing is to first make sure that the
big star buys into your program and accepts what you are doing and then
everyone else falls into line?"
Jones: "Those players have to be included. Your top two
players, like Russell and Cousy. It's even better if you have three players.
Your major guys are the ones who have to be included in your strategy planning.
They have thoughts. Red Auerbach did that with Cousy and Russell. If you don't
do that there is a fence there. You are alone. A wall is up."
Friedman: "You mentioned something about demeanor, that you
were not a media darling or doing things that the media would pick up on and
that is similar to Phil Jackson, because sometimes people will criticize him by
saying, 'Look what is going on on the court and he is sitting there looking at
his fingernails.' When you were on the sidelines you were not very
demonstrative. Your teams were very effective. People would turn that into a
criticism. I think that that is another way that you were similar to Phil
Jackson. You had a very calm demeanor on the courtside, you weren’t running
around or getting technicals."
Jones: "That's the entertainment factor. John Wooden seldom
got off the bench, but that's what the media looks for and some coaches have a
way of giving them what they want. Rick Pitino is great on the sidelines with
the press and his demeanor on the court. That's awesome stuff. You have others
who do the same thing and that's their coaching style."
Friedman: "From your standpoint, coaching—"
Jones: "Larry Brown in Detroit,
what does he do?"
Friedman: "To me, he is a little bit of a mixture. A lot of
times he is getting up and getting excited but sometimes—I think that he is a
hybrid. I think he is in the middle. He is not as demonstrative as some, but he
is not always just sitting there quietly—"
Jones: "Not in the playoffs (laughs). Maybe in the regular
season. In the regular season there is a tomorrow."
Friedman: "Right. Your coaching philosophy, as I understand
it, is your coaching was done in practice. You prepared the team for what they
had to do and you didn't need to do a lot of histrionics on the sidelines—"
Jones: "It wasn't me to be that demonstrative and it's not Jackson to do that.
Brown, same thing there. Then you have others—Bill Fitch was great, he was up
on the sidelines. He could have been a comedian on the stage because he was
great with the media and he was a super bright person."
Friedman: "One other thing that I wanted to ask you about is
something that I recall and then I see it all the time on ESPN Classic. I
noticed something about where Larry Bird would receive the ball. Usually when
you have a great player who is predominantly right handed, when they catch the
ball on the block—whether is it Shaq or Hakeem or Duncan—you can go down the
line—they usually like that left block. What I noticed a lot of times—"
Jones: "The left block facing the basket?"
Friedman: "Right. Exactly. The left block facing the basket.
If you picture Hakeem posting up or Shaq, they usually run to that left block.
That seems to be where the great players who are right handed tend to go."
Jones: "Except for Kareem."
Friedman: "Right."
Jones: "Kareem liked the right block."
Friedman: "Yeah. But I noticed with Larry Bird a lot of
times when he ran that exchange with Parish or if he was posting up and Ainge
or Dennis Johnson were feeding him, a lot of times Bird would go to the right
block or even the right side midway between the foul line and the block. I
wondered if there was a particular reason why he received the ball there. I
don't remember a lot of great players who were right handed getting the ball
there. I've always been curious about that."
Jones: "Well, hey, that’s something new to me. I never
thought about that. Of course, guys have special places they like to be. Right
handed guys like to be on the right block, is that what you’re saying?"
Friedman: "Well, my observation—maybe I’m wrong and you can
correct me. It seems to me that right hand dominant players tend to go to the
left block—I'm thinking of Shaq, Tim Duncan, Hakeem Olajuwon. I know that you
mentioned Kareem. I think that he would go to either block."
Jones: "Yeah."
Friedman: "I noticed a lot of times with Larry Bird—I
remember watching it during the 1980s and then I see it again on ESPN Classic—a
lot of times he was getting the ball on the right wing, midway between the foul
line and the post. I didn't know if this was by design or if that was where he
liked to get the ball or if it had anything to do with the spacing of the other
players. I didn't know if there was a grand reason behind it or it just
happened that way."
Jones: "Well I never saw a grand reason behind Larry doing
that. Of course, shooters follow the ball, and if you are a Reggie Miller or a
Larry Bird or whoever, it's wherever you get the ball and deal with it. But
then there are plays that put you in position to do that. Then it's, 'What side
do you want it on?' or 'What block do you want it on?' Then you know that’s the
way it goes and that’s how it’s dealt with."
Friedman: "Oh, OK. It seemed like he would get the ball a
lot of times in that area. I even noticed it when they replayed the old 1979
NCAA Championship against Magic Johnson. I didn't know if it was something that
developed early in his career for some reason. I know that he was effective
anywhere on the court, but I didn't know if there was a particular reason he
liked that spot, kind of midway between the foul line and the post. If he had a
smaller guy it seemed like he would back him in—"
Jones: "Yeah."
Friedman: "If he had a bigger guy he would drive. In the
(1988 playoff) game against Dominique, it seemed like he was getting the ball a
lot of times in that spot and then he would wheel around and drive into the
lane, like in that fourth quarter when he had 20 points."
Jones: "Yeah. Of course, players have spots that they like
or positions that they like to be in to make their favorite move down there.
You’re saying left block and right block and some of them could do both, but I
was never really that aware of that except coming off certain plays if he
wanted to post up he would come to either block, the block that he liked best.
More times than not, Larry was on the right side of the court as a forward.
Kevin was always on the block—him or Robert."
Friedman: "Right. Bird would be kind of in a mid-post
position, between the foul line and the block or even outside the three point
line."
Jones: "Yeah, Larry would come from the right side or the
left side or coming off a screen set by Robert or Kevin. A lot of times he was
on the right post."
Friedman: "Yeah, that’s what I'm saying. I noticed that on
tape. I found that interesting. I didn't know if there was a specific reason. I
guess some of that just comes out of the flow of the game."
Jones: "Yeah. It comes out of the flow of the game. What
about other players? Hamilton,
he does that circle thing, he comes around to the right side a lot of times and
all of a sudden he’s up in the air for the shot."
Friedman: "He's perpetual motion."
Jones: "Yeah, but all he is doing is trying to get open.
It's like a 1-4 setup, two guys on the right block, one guy on the left block
and the point guard's up top. Hamilton’s
down under the basket trying to find which way he can go to get the defense
knocked off. So he'll fake this way and go that way. Or fake this way and go
the other way. He's coming around and that's how he gets open."
Friedman: "He kind of bounces around like a pinball. He
reads, he goes by one of his big men and reads which way his defender is going
and he pops out the other way."
Jones: "Yeah. He's doing a mile run to get open to get his
shot on a court that is what, 50 by 90?"
Friedman: "Right. Exactly."
Jones: "But that's him. There are different ways of doing
it. Oscar Robertson would dribble you this way or that way for 15 seconds, let
you make a mistake with one of his subtle fakes and he's by you. Different
strokes."
Friedman: "Oscar's philosophy, as I understand it, was
always that he was never satisfied. If he had a 15 foot shot, he would try to
back you in or fake so that he could get a 12 foot shot. If he had a 12 foot
shot, he was always trying to get closer to the basket, and of course he had
great size, so he was always trying to get the closer shot. He was never
satisfied."
Jones: "Well, why not?" (laughs)
Friedman: "Sure, it makes sense. Well, the current players
don't always necessarily think that way. If the shot is open then they think it
is a good shot. They are not trying to get closer. It’s not the same type of
approach. Of course, Oscar's approach makes sense."
Jones: "That's what you work for. If you can get it, you get
it, but you have to work for it."
Friedman: "One more thing that I want to ask you—"
Jones: "There is one thing that I want to say. You were
talking about that I had Larry Bird and Kevin McHale and all those people and
that's how I was able to win. Then, I mentioned Bill Fitch. But I was not mentioning
Bill Fitch in a negative way."
Friedman: "No, I understand."
Jones: "I was talking about the critics and what they were
saying. If I had these people here and that is the reason that I got to the
Finals and won championships—he was coaching the same guys."
Friedman: "No, I understand your point exactly."
Jones: "I wanted to be clear on that."
Friedman: "OK, no problem there. I understand what you are
saying. Just to make it clear from my standpoint, I don't believe that that is
a valid criticism. I am bringing up something that other people have said to
get your reaction to it."
Jones: "That's what I was reacting to, not something that
you said, but what you were asking."
Friedman: "When I thought about it and realized that I would
have the opportunity to speak with you about Sam Jones, I was also thinking
about a future article that I could write about you in a similar vein. The
article that I am writing about Sam Jones is called 'Reconsidered,' when I look
at somebody's career and take a different perspective—look at someone who has
been underrated or neglected. I was thinking that in a future article I could
do something very similar about your coaching career, because I see a lot of
parallels between your coaching career and Phil Jackson's in terms of not
receiving what I would consider to be adequate credit. Like you say, they don't
look at Bill Fitch that way for whatever reason, but, sometimes, critics will
say, well someone had the players—and someone else may have had the same players
and they don’t make that criticism—it doesn't always seem fair."
Jones: "Look, that's being—what do you call it—not biased,
but that's going straight at the coaches, K.C. or Jackson, because they had the
talent. Those critics are saying that they really don't think much of these two
coaches."
Friedman: "Right and some of it also gets back to what you
were talking about in terms of how the coach may relate to the media or how the
media perceives them."
Jones: "That's it right there. Bill Fitch had a great
ability in controlling the media through his humor. He'd jump up every now and
then and scream. They'd feel the spirit he put into it—a great communicator and
that's what the media wants. That's what they accept. With a guy like me,
they're not going to get much, because I'm the guy who sits quietly on the
bench."
Friedman: "Right. In that sense also, although he hasn't won
a championship as a coach, there is a little similarity between you and Maurice
Cheeks from a demeanor standpoint. Maurice Cheeks is not real demonstrative, he
is kind of quiet and that doesn't mean that the person is not coaching, that's
just his personality—"
Jones: "If he had been in there and won a couple
championships then he would have the same problem I have." (laughs)
Friedman: "Right. Exactly."
Jones: "And Dr. Jack Ramsay."
Friedman: "Right. One other thing that I want to ask you
about is not the happiest memory from your coaching career, but I want to have
your perspective on it. History is generally told from the standpoint of who
won—also, in light of what happened this year in the Finals when we had an
upset, of course. You coached the Washington Bullets in the Finals against Golden State
(in 1975) and that was a team that was considered to be the favorite but you
did not win. We always read the story from the perspective of what Rick Barry
did or Golden State or whatever, but from your
standpoint what do you feel like happened in that series? From your standpoint
why did that series go the way it did?"
Jones: "Well, the scenario was that there was a circus that
was going on during the Finals in San
Francisco. So that changed the whole format from the
usual 2-2-1-1-1. The change was we had the choice of playing game one in San Francisco and the next two in Washington or the other way around. I made
the mistake of taking the first game at home and being on the road for the next
two. You make a boo-boo like that, it makes it very difficult to win the
championship as the favorite."
Friedman: "What you're saying is that when you lost the
first game it put you behind the eight ball because you didn't have the home
court advantage that you expected to have."
Jones: "Yeah, that was what the format was. By them winning
the first game—and they won it narrowly, because we missed a layup that
would've won the game—Golden State now felt confident as all get out, rather
than being intimidated by the 2-2-1-1-1."
Friedman: "That's something that I know about because I've
researched that series a little bit and read about what happened, but that's
something that is not mentioned a lot when people talk about the upset or what
Rick Barry did, but that was a big disadvantage—"
Jones: "What you're saying is that they just come out with
their thoughts about how I did a terrible job because I was favored, but
without mentioning how the series was set up. Nothing is mentioned about the
circus, nothing is mentioned about the 1-2 format."
Friedman: "That also says something about where the NBA
ranked in the sports universe or the entertainment universe at that time. I
don't think that kind of scheduling could happen in today's NBA. I don't think
that there could be some type of scheduling snafu where you end up playing
1-2—"
Jones: "Golden State, they had that schedule set (with the circus)
because they felt that Golden
State would not (still)
be in the playoffs. So they used that playoff time to have the circus but all
of a sudden Golden State beat Chicago
and then it was like, 'Oh, (shoot).'"
Friedman: "Right, 'What are we going to do?'"
Jones: "'We have a circus here, da-da-da,' and the
commissioner said, 'OK, 1-2.'"
Friedman: "But nowadays the NBA is such a huge business I
don't think that anyone—even the Orlando Magic with the horrible record that
they had last year—would have scheduled a circus to be in there during playoff
time until they were mathematically eliminated. I don't think that anyone would
say before the season starts, 'I don't think that we're going to be in the
playoffs, let's have the circus here in May.' Well, I won't take up any more of
your time. Thank you so much for your help with the Sam Jones article. As I
mentioned, at some point I would like to do a 'K.C. Jones Reconsidered' dealing
with your coaching career."
A few minutes after the conclusion of the interview, K.C.
Jones called back to state that he wanted it on the record that "Bill Fitch was
a better coach than I was." K.C. Jones made it very clear that his comments
about both of them having the same players but Fitch's coaching skills not
being critiqued in the media the same way that his were did not mean that he
did not respect Fitch as a coach. I reassured K.C. Jones that I understood what
he had meant during the interview and that I have no intention of trying to
create some type of rift with Coach Fitch. The operative comparison is between
the laid back bench demeanors of both Jones and Jackson.
It speaks volumes about Jones' character (1) that he spent so much time doing an in depth interview with a writer who he did not know and who is not famous and (2) that he put so much thought into his answers, to the point of calling me back to clarify that he meant no disrespect to Coach Fitch. Longtime 20 Second Timeout readers know that Julius Erving is my favorite player of all-time. It goes without saying that I was not rooting for Jones' teams during the 1980s--but I hope that it is also evident how much I respect him, and how much research and preparation I did (for a basketball lifetime, not just for one interview) before I spoke with him.
I am happy that I shared that time with K.C. Jones, and I hope that this interview helps basketball fans cultivate a greater appreciation for his accomplishments. I never wrote the "K.C. Jones Reconsidered" article, but in a sense that is what this article is. K.C. Jones deserves to be reconsidered, and to always be remembered as a championship player and a championship coach.
Labels: Bill Russell, Boston Celtics, Clyde Drexler, K.C. Jones, Kobe Bryant, Larry Bird, Michael Jordan, Phil Jackson, Richard Hamilton, Sam Jones, Slick Leonard, Tommy Heinsohn
posted by David Friedman @ 7:09 PM
Interview with Ted Green, Producer of "Undefeated: The Roger Brown Story"
Ted Green's documentary "Undefeated: The Roger Brown Story" chronicles the story of one of the most underrated players in pro basketball history. Roger Brown set the ABA single game playoff scoring record (53 points, later matched by Hall of Famer Julius Erving), he outscored Hall of Famer Rick Barry 32-23 in the decisive sixth game of the 1972 ABA Finals and he won the 1970 ABA Playoff MVP after averaging 28.5 ppg, 10.1 rpg and 5.6 apg in the postseason as the Indiana Pacers won the first of their three championships in a four season stretch. Brown was a key member of all three of those championship teams even though he lost the prime years of his professional career after being wrongly banned by the NBA for his alleged association with the notorious game fixer Jack Molinas; the NBA later officially acknowledged that it had no evidence against Brown but Brown stayed in the ABA out of loyalty to a league and a team that gave him the opportunity to play professional basketball. Brown's loyalty has undoubtedly played a major role in keeping him out of the Basketball Hall of Fame. Like Brown, Connie Hawkins was wrongly banned by the NBA for his alleged association with Molinas but Hawkins jumped to the NBA in 1970 after a lawsuit forced the NBA to lift its ban. Hawkins had four All-Star seasons in the NBA during the same period that Brown won those ABA titles (Brown made the ABA All-Star team four times) and Hawkins was eventually inducted in the Basketball Hall of Fame. If ABA numbers are counted--and they certainly should be--then Brown and Hawkins have very similar statistics: Brown averaged 17.4 ppg, 6.2 rpg and 3.8 apg in 605 regular season games, while Hawkins averaged 18.7 ppg, 8.7 rpg and 4.1 apg in 616 regular season games. Both players lost several prime years because of the NBA's ban. Players who competed with or against Brown have long said that Brown deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.
Green's previous film credits include "Naptown to Super City," "Hoosier Veterans: Faces of War" and "John Wooden: The Indiana Story". Here is a review of "Naptown to Super City": "Naptown to Super City"-- Required Viewing for Any City Using Sports for Economic Development.
Here is the transcript of my recent interview with Ted Green, edited for length and clarity:
Friedman: "Describe your background as a film producer and how you got into this field. What are some of the other movies and documentaries that you have produced?"
Ted Green: "It's interesting. This has been a real midlife change for me. I worked as a sports journalist for 20 years, starting with small newspapers. Then I went to the
Cincinnati Enquirer. I was there for a while and then I went to the Miami Herald, where I became the deputy sports editor. Then my wife and I moved to Indianapolis. When we had our twin girls I took the first three years off--well, not off, but to watch the kids while my wife worked at the
Indianapolis Star--and I wrote a novel, which is currently sitting in my underwear drawer and I am trying to find the nerve to rewrite it. I worked for the
Star for six years in their sports department and what got me into filmmaking was when John Wooden--who is of course an Indiana icon--was approaching his 100th birthday. We felt like we had to do something special. A lot of people don't realize how many years he spent in Indiana. I started out to do just a quick little six minute video. As I did my research I realized that his Indiana story had never really been told before. People thought that his story started at UCLA. So, to make a short story long, that six minute video turned into a 35 minute video. I just walked it down the street to the local PBS affiliate because somebody said that they might be interested in it and, sure enough, they were. It has been on American public television, which is comprised of PBS affiliates, for the past three years. It airs in 80% of U.S. markets and it is called 'John Wooden: The Indiana Story.' It won an Emmy for research, an award from the Society of Professional Journalists and several other nice awards. That project turned me on to something that I really enjoy doing, the idea of telling stories in a more dynamic medium. After that I did another film, also involved with the
Indianapolis Star, called 'Hoosier Veterans: Faces of War.' It had nothing to do with sports at all. It was about military veterans from all of the different wars, going back as far as Pearl Harbor and Normandy up through Korea, Vietnam and all the way to Afghanistan and Iraq. We looked at the commonalities and the differences in those war experiences. After that, my wife and I decided as our kids were getting older that I was so into filmmaking that I wanted to change careers and pursue this as a full-time gig. Fortunately, we were able to make that leap. The first piece that I did was just a small segment for WFYI, which is the PBS affiliate here in Indianapolis. It was for a movie called 'Indy in the 60s' and since I was a sports guy they gave me the story of the Indiana Pacers, which started in 1967. I got to talk to George McGinnis and I knew about Mel Daniels and certainly Slick Leonard but there was one guy whose jersey was up in the rafters at what was then, I believe, Conseco Fieldhouse, that I didn't know and that was Roger Brown. I hardly knew anything about him. When I talked to Mel Daniels and Slick Leonard they kept going on and on about this guy. I thought, 'How can this be that I don't know about Roger Brown?'
I decided to get to know his ex-wife, Jeannie. They were married for a while and then they split up and then they sort of stayed together on and off for a long time. In fact, Roger passed away in their house. She took care of him when he had cancer. It took a while to get her to trust me but then she told me Roger's story. She opened up his past to me and she had all of these old boxes of articles. She talked about his Pacers days and the gambling scandal and everything and I was just stupefied that this story had never been completely told before. As a storyteller--and I'm sure that you can appreciate this--when you find a great story that affects you so much and hasn't been told before you want to do it. Ever since that day I became obsessed with telling this story. In the meantime, I did another project called 'Naptown to Super City' which told the story of how Indianapolis very consciously remade itself around sports. It really all started with the Pacers, because the Pacers were a very successful ABA franchise. Then Mayor Lugar, who became a long-time Senator, decided to build a new stadium right downtown and that became Market Square Arena. That led to many other things and we ended up with a whole new city. That was the most recent documentary that I completed. It came out in February and has been well received but all the while I was working on that I was also working on the Roger Brown story. I spent a lot of time in Brooklyn. I spent a lot of time in Dayton, where Roger lived for six years. I talked to a lot of people in Indianapolis. After the Super Bowl documentary wrapped up, I have been working full time on Roger Brown and my hope is to have it finished this year."
Friedman: "When do you expect that the Roger Brown documentary will be released and will it be a television movie or a theatrical release?"
Green: "Those are questions that are dogging me every day. The movie is being produced by WFYI, Indianapolis' PBS affiliate which produced my earlier films, and will definitely air on that channel. We have spoken with Lloyd Wright, who is the president of WFYI and is close friends with the presidents of several PBS affiliates around the country. The New York PBS affiliate recently let us use their studios to do an interview with Bob Costas. A lot of people are helping out and a lot of PBS affiliates are very interested in airing this piece. Also, we are in talks with people about having it released a la 'Hoop Dreams' as an independent release in a few major theaters around the country. We are just really early in that process. We have been talking with some of the bigger cable networks. Everyone says that this has to be an ESPN piece. That is very easy to say but I talked with ESPN very early in the process and at that point they didn't really know who Roger Brown was--which is completely understandable; that is why I am doing the piece--and they certainly did not know who Ted Green was, so those talks did not go very far. Since then, the story had gotten so much better and I would put this cast up against the cast of any documentary, when you look at some of the names who are involved. Also, the timing is excellent now because--although nothing is certain--Roger Brown has a very good chance of being the next ABA guy selected for the Basketball Hall of Fame. When I interviewed Bob Costas he said that he thought that Roger would be the next guy in. There is no certainty and there are other very worthy candidates; certainly right here in town we have two worthy candidates in Slick Leonard and George McGinnis. I, like many other people, believe that they should already be in the Hall of Fame. So, if Roger does get in the Hall of Fame in February, a lot of people are going to want to know who Roger Brown was and this documentary explains who he was and why you haven't heard of him before. This is one of the great sports stories that hasn't been told. I am very determined to have this released by February but, that said, we are still fundraising for the finishing funds. I am very, very grateful to the Indiana Pacers and to Bankers Life Casualty (whose name is on Bankers Life Fieldhouse), who are co-title sponsors and have kicked in a very nice amount to get this project off of the ground--but we still fundraising to finish it right and make it as good as it can be to tell this story right and also to get it released by February when Roger will hopefully make it to the Hall of Fame."
Friedman: "What did you find out in the course of your research about Roger Brown that most surprised you?"
Green: "That's a good question. A lot of things surprised me but I guess the main thing is how the whole scandal went down, pre-Miranda rights, how the D.A.s could keep the 18 and 19 year old boys--or young men, however you want to look at it--essentially locked up without offering them phone calls or lawyers, not charge them and keep them for days on end as they grilled them again and again in their attempts to nail the gamblers. It's draconian and it's impossible to imagine something like that happening today, to find out that this is what ruined the careers--for a long time--of two of the great players (Connie Hawkins and Roger Brown) in basketball history, plus also the careers of other good players like Doug Moe and Tony Jackson who were also unfairly caught up in that. It just should not have gone down that way. That is one of the things that surprised me the most, the logistics of how this happened. The other thing that surprised me the most was just how good of a player he was. I mentioned earlier that the documentary has an incredible cast. I've been very fortunate to be in contact with Zelda Spoelstra in the NBA Alumni office--and I want to thank
Herb Turetzky for putting me in contact with her. She's in love with the story, she's always been a fan of Roger Brown and she helped me arrange interviews with big name players. Julius Erving told me that when he came into pro basketball Roger Brown was the best player he'd ever seen, describing Brown as a hybrid between himself and Earl Monroe. I asked him if he was serious about that and he said absolutely. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's eyes lit up when he described being a 13 year old watching Roger Brown and Connie Hawkins in an All-Star game for the first time and thinking that he never thought human beings could do some of those things. I talked to Oscar Robertson about Roger Brown's Dayton years. Roger and the Dayton guys would play pickup games against Oscar and some Cincinnati guys. They called it the I-75 series. Cincinnati had just won back to back NCAA championships with Tom Thacker and others. Oscar, who graduated earlier, played in those games as well. They played these games in a high school gym with no fans, no writers. Oscar and Roger did not play the same position but Thacker said that sometimes in the course of a game Oscar and Roger would hook up one on one and it was a wash. Again and again I found myself challenging these guys, saying how could he be this good and yet people don't know about him. Yet again and again that is what I would hear. Those are some of the things that surprised me."
Friedman: "How much footage of Roger Brown were you able to acquire and put in the documentary?"
Green: "I have been very dogged and determined about that. I have come up with quite a bit of excellent ABA footage from collectors and from local affiliates. Jeannie Brown had in her basement an old reel of film. She didn't know what it was. We got it digitized and it was some excellent footage. I actually do have a lot of footage and that is one of the things that I am looking forward to and I am not showing my full hand on this right now with what you see in the previews. As you understand, ABA footage can be very difficult to come by. I have been very fortunate to get some nice footage to show people just how incredible of a player Roger was."
Friedman: "You have touched on this in general but I want ask you this specifically: Why is Roger Brown's story so important to you?"
Green: "It's become a cause for me and I think that is because for so many of the people I talked to it is a cause for them: his family, his friends, his former teammates like Mel Daniels, George McGinnis, Bob Netolicky and Darnell Hillman, his coach Slick Leonard and on and on and on--his proxy family in Dayton, an incredible woman named Arlena Smith and her husband Azariah; Roger lived with them for two years in their very modest house. When Roger was kicked out of the University of Dayton in 1961 (after being falsely accused in the Jack Molinas scandal), the first thing that he did was go back to Brooklyn. He didn't feel comfortable there, so he went back to Dayton. He had no money and he had nowhere to live, so that is when the Smiths took him in. Azariah Smith coached the AAU team at the local GM plant.
A lot of Roger's friends in Dayton are still around. These are people when I call and say that I am doing a film about Roger Brown the phone will be silent for 10 seconds and then they will say 'I've been waiting 25 years for this phone call.' That is the kind of loyalty that Roger inspired and that is the nature of this cause, as hokey as it might sound. This has long been a cause for these folks, to right the legacy of this man. Will I be able to do that with this piece? I don't know. That is certainly the challenge. Honestly, it's become a piece from the heart for me. It's certainly not about money, because I'm going to be losing, but we're making this from the heart. It's important to the Indianapolis community, it's important to the Dayton community, it's important to the Brooklyn community and I think that it's important to a lot of people in the basketball community. It's just a story that needs to be told. This is a guy whose legacy was wronged but he fought through it. He really managed to make a success out of himself and a lot of people want to see his story finally told. Roger Brown's story touched people. His teammates tear up when talking about him and I think that's a good thing. That is what makes this film really special. This is not a dry eye piece."
This photo is from the recent "Undefeated: The Roger Brown Story" fundraiser at Bankers Life Fieldhouse. Pictured left to right are Darnell Hillman, Slick Leonard, George McGinnis, Tom Thacker, Freddie Lewis, Bob Netolicky, Jeannie Brown (Roger's widow), Mel Daniels and Jerry Harkness.
Green is still actively raising funds for "Undefeated: The Roger Brown Story" and you can make your tax deductible contribution to this 501c3 project by visiting the WFYI page. Be sure to specify that your WFYI donation should be earmarked for "Undefeated: The Roger Brown Story."Labels: George McGinnis, Herb Turetzky, Indiana Pacers, Julius Erving, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Mel Daniels, Oscar Robertson, Roger Brown, Slick Leonard, Ted Green
posted by David Friedman @ 5:46 PM
